Half diminished

[Greywolf]

If I don't get this sorted I will be half diminished.
I seem to have a complete mental block where this is concerned

I understand the progression in a diminished scale half/whole or whole half etc.

Will someone please just tell me what the progression for a half-diminished scale would be starting on C.

Whenever I start reading about it, the writer starts bringing in all sorts of other garbage to cloud the issue.

Please put me out of my misery. Once I've got this I can begin to do something useful.

 

[Simon]

You're asking what is the scale of C half diminished, written Cm7b5?

(It's a minor scale in it's own right... don't relate it to C7b9 (Dominant Diminished), C7#9 (Altered or Diminished Whole Tone) or Cdim7 (Diminished Scale) which is what the H-W and W-H carry on is)

Coupla choices:

1. C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db Major starting on the C, also called C Locrian

2. C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Eb Melodic Minor starting on C, also called C Locrian #2

Number 2 is just Number 1 with a raised 2nd note. Sounds better in certain situations. Start with Number 1 and get this sound in your head / under your fingers.

I'd get into this when practising a minor 2-5 progression,
eg Cm7b5 -> F7b9

Simon

 

[philthd]

a lot of people really dont like the term "half diminished" because they find it misleading and inaccurate.
personally i like it, but you have to remember its just a convenient shorthand.
it is a minor seven flat five and if you treat it like that it becomes more intuitive

 

[rumproller]

Hello,
Another choice is to play :
C Db Eb F Gb A Bb Bb harmonic minor starting from C

 

[sam_moreton]

rumproller, i dont understand how a harmonic minor is a m7b5 scale :S can you explain?

 

[Pete Thomas]

They're different beasts.

Cm7b5 is a chord, not a scale. Yes there are plenty of scales that will fit that chord, but they aren't called a Cm7b5 scale, there is no such thing as a m7b5 scale.

A Bb harmonic minor fits very nicely with a Cm7b5 chord, so does a Db major, or you could think of it as a C locrian (7th mode of Db).

 

[Simon]

Hey Pete - why can't Cm7b5 be a scale?

If you take a minor 2-5 progression, does this mean that a sax player should only be playing C Eb Gb Bb on the 2 cos there's no scale to fit?

Why is Bb harmonic minor a good choice? - doesn't it get you playing A (the 3rd of the V chord (F7b9) early and if yer gonna do that, why bother with the m7b5 ?

On a keyboard I hear Cm7b5 (LH=C, Bb; RH=Eb, Gb) to F7#9 (LH=F, A; RH=Eb, Ab).

Simon

Pete Thomas wrote:
They're different beasts.

Cm7b5 is a chord, not a scale. Yes there are plenty of scales that will fit that chord, but they aren't called a Cm7b5 scale, there is no such thing as a m7b5 scale.

A Bb harmonic minor fits very nicely with a Cm7b5 chord, so does a Db major, or you could think of it as a C locrian (7th mode of Db).

 

[Pete Thomas]

simon wrote:
Hey Pete - why can't Cm7b5 be a scale?

Because it's a chord

If you take a minor 2-5 progression, does this mean that a sax player should only be playing C Eb Gb Bb on the 2 cos there's no scale to fit?

Not at all

Why is Bb harmonic minor a good choice? - doesn't it get you playing A (the 3rd of the V chord (F7b9) early and if yer gonna do that, why bother with the m7b5 ?

Bb minor is the key centre of that II-V-I, and even if you are using the m7b5 as part of a major, it sounds very cool to use the harmonic minor. Any use of a scale/chord approach involves judiciously choosing which beats the notes fall on. The A is usually a passing note in this case.

(Sidenote: You will also find very often that improvisers view the II-V part of a II-V-I as a fairly vague area, and the II/V can areas can be interchangeable. This is something that doesn't fit in with pedagogy too well, all that can be said is that you need to know the rules before you break them)

Also think about a C major scale on a C major triad: you have to place the F very carefully.

This is why the bebop scale works so well - provided you are start with the chord tone son the beat, they stay that way as you extend the sacle over, say, two octaves.

The scale/chord approach is a great way to start impro, but there are many caveats. It's not a magic solution unfortunately. You still need to know how to place chord tones and non-chord tones, whether you use them as passing notes or susppensions.

Hope that helps.

 

[Linky Lee]

I agree Pete.
I'm currently being taught this kind of scale to chord relationship stuff by my sax teacher. Luckily I think, he's not very strict with it and goes more down a line of trying to get me to hear the sounds of these scales and fit them where I feel they should go. He also gets me to work things out for myself, with a little push in the right direction here and there.
You can play all the 'right' notes as much as you like and be really complex and wacky with it. But if you don't have a good tone, play with confidence, or articulate, use dynamics, or resolve you'll be really hard to listen to and most people wouldn't like it.

- that's what I'd imagine anyway.

 

[Simon]

Pete

OK so you're talking about using the Bb harmonic minor over the Cm7b5 but then covering yerself by saying that if any of the notes don't fit, there just passing notes. Heheh - I tried that in the exams.

For me the hamronic minor scale isn't great over a minor ii-V7 - the b9 (in this case Db over Cm7b5) sux. But then it's a passing note... 😉

Pete Thomas wrote:
Bb minor is the key centre of that II-V-I, and even if you are using the m7b5 as part of a major, it sounds very cool to use the harmonic minor. Any use of a scale/chord approach involves judiciously choosing which beats the notes fall on. The A is usually a passing note in this case.

Sure you can use a minor ii-V7 leading to a major - written about and used extensively at Berklee. My point - there is a half diminished scale sound, it is different from a parent minor scale and it's not true to say it's only a chord.

Take this chord Cmaj13 - in theory it's the C Major scale!

(Sidenote: You will also find very often that improvisers view the II-V part of a II-V-I as a fairly vague area, and the II/V can areas can be interchangeable. This is something that doesn't fit in with pedagogy too well, all that can be said is that you need to know the rules before you break them)

Or raise it to F#... which makes it a Lydian scale

Also think about a C major scale on a C major triad: you have to place the F very carefully.

Case in point - there is a half diminshed bebop scale:
Cm7b5 bebop scale descending is C Bb Ab G Gb F Eb Db C

... so still no scale to go with Cm7b5 then?

This is why the bebop scale works so well - provided you are start with the chord tone son the beat, they stay that way as you extend the sacle over, say, two octaves.

The scale/chord approach is a great way to start impro, but there are many caveats. It's not a magic solution unfortunately. You still need to know how to place chord tones and non-chord tones, whether you use them as passing notes or susppensions.

Hope that helps.

Your turn... heheh
Simon

 

[Pete Thomas]

simon wrote:
OK so you're talking about using the Bb harmonic minor over the Cm7b5 but then covering yerself by saying that if any of the notes don't fit, there just passing notes. Heheh - I tried that in the exams.

For me the hamronic minor scale isn't great over a minor ii-V7 - the b9 (in this case Db over Cm7b5) sux. But then it's a passing note... 😉

You always need to be very careful when using the scale/chord system, or it will sound bad of course. Wouldn't it be nice if a scale just went with a chord without any thought about note placement - instant jazz impro?

The harmonic minor scale of a tonic has been used in over a IIm7b5 in jazz for 60 or 70 years now. E.g. Charlie Parker - see "Diverse" Omnibook p115-116 and see how he places the Bbs on an A minor 7 usually as a passing note.

As I said, playing a C major scale over a C major chord, you can't just play the scale any old way or the F can sound bad.

Always always always be aware of chord tones and how the scales that are supposed to "fit" chords need to be played appropriately or it isn't musical.

This is why I think the scale/chord approach is a double edged sword. You still need to know the best way to use them or you aren't learning jazz improvisation, you are learning to play scales over chords.

 

[sam_moreton]

thanks guys! This thread has taught me loads

i would have more of an input but its a bit over my head at the minute.

I guess Ive always looked at note relations between chords and scales and the notes that arn't in the chord are usually just a bit more tense :whistle:

 

[Pete Thomas]

sam moreton wrote:
and the notes that arn't in the chord are usually just a bit more tense

They can be but not necessarily.
Imagine you have a C major chord and play four quavers FEDC and hold on a B for the 3rd beat. The F and D (non chord notes) are firmly on beats 1 and 2 so ARE tense (you can think of them as suspensions) and the E & C are on the "and" of each beat so not so prominent.

BUT

If you play the same but with the notes GFEDC, the chord tones G and E are on the beats and the non chord tones are on the "and" of each beat so do not have the tension they had when on the beat. These are passing notes and in conventional music theory they do not have to be chord tones, they can even be chromatic notes.

When using the scaler approach it's best IMO to know the chord tones so you can use them on the beats.

 

[Simon]

Hi Pete

Pete Thomas wrote:
You always need to be very careful when using the scale/chord system, or it will sound bad of course. Wouldn't it be nice if a scale just went with a chord without any thought about note placement - instant jazz impro?

Yes - isn't that the idea behind the famous Blues scale ?!

The harmonic minor scale of a tonic has been used in over a IIm7b5 in jazz for 60 or 70 years now. E.g. Charlie Parker - see "Diverse" Omnibook p115-116 and see how he places the Bbs on an A minor 7 usually as a passing note.

Yeah sort of ... if you took Bar 2 of Line 11 on p116 there's one on beat 1 ... but then on beat 2 you've got C# (with Am7 indicated)! Given that 'Diverse' was played fast (260 bpm), I guess the odd G Blues scale fragment could explain the Bb-C-C#-D...

As I said, playing a C major scale over a C major chord, you can't just play the scale any old way or the F can sound bad.

Ditto the Locrian mode over a m7b5 ... this is a scale choice for that!
I personally like the Locrian #2 to avoid the b9 over a minor... 😉

Always always always be aware of chord tones and how the scales that are supposed to "fit" chords need to be played appropriately or it isn't musical.

Yeah - I was taught that beats 1 & 3 need the chord notes... the rest is up for grabs...

This is why I think the scale/chord approach is a double edged sword. You still need to know the best way to use them or you aren't learning jazz improvisation, you are learning to play scales over chords.

Sure, but 'forward motion' and playing bop lines that hit the right downbeats with the chord notes has to start somewhere... scales ala Aebersold is a 'music by numbers' attempt at this. Guys like David Baker and Jerry Bergonzi have several books that get into explaining how to create lines that groove. They all start with some sort of scale reference though... hence the bebop scales!

Simon