Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[Bernie]

What do you consider 'theory' then?
I use my harmonic knowledge to map the tune, whether I am reading or trying to catch a singer that doesn't know music (it is my Saturday gig)

Can you say a little more about what catching a singer involves?

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

Am I missing something here? Playing from written music is a visual activity. We read scales when we are learning to play them. Music is made up of pieces of scales and chord like intervals. Many times when reading a very technically challenging solo I have recognized a passage as being all or part of a chromatic scale. I don't have to read each individual note, I just notice where it begins and ends and play the pattern I recognize as the chromatic scale.

Perhaps the better answer to "What is the point of writing out the scales?" is that anyone who can't do that really does not know their scales.

I make a clear distinction between notation and theory. Of course I like dots as aid memoir and a tune learning tool. What really gets my goat is when those funny chord symbols appear and the theoretical analysis begins and professionals, afficionados and acedemics begin with their baffling terminogy out pourings of egotistical bovine faecal matter, frequently confusing everyone including themselves. I have in the past given up on a workshop midway when it became obvious the tutor was more concerned with self image than in engaging the students.

 

[Jeanette]

I make a clear distinction between notation and theory. Of course I like dots as aid memoir and a tune learning tool. What really gets my goat is when those funny chord symbols appear and the theoretical analysis begins and professionals, afficionados and acedemics begin with their baffling terminogy out pourings of egotistical bovine faecal matter, frequently confusing everyone including themselves. I have in the past given up on a workshop midway when it became obvious the tutor was more concerned with self image than in engaging the students.

But if you knew the theory what they said would make sense surely? It's only because you don't that it is like listening to a foreign language 🙂

Jx

 

[Jez Watson]

Not when you've learned how to do it.

thats nonsense, its instant singing a phrase you have just listened to, and while once you have learned it on an instrument you may retain it if you play it often thats not the case if you have to transpose it, its very easy transposing a phrase/melody when singing, its very difficult to do as quick on an instrument

 

[Jeanette]

thats nonsense,

In your opinion 🙂

Jx

 

[Jez Watson]

In your opinion 🙂

Jx

Yes my opinion, however if you try to do it in reality you will find that it is true, its not some kind of abstraction of some knid of theoretical mumbo jumbo, give a musician a phrase to sing back and irrespective of singing quality its almost instant to be able to repeat it, how long would it take to play it back on the instrument of their choice, then get them to sing it up a tone, easy again, how long does it take to play it back up a tone? depends on a lot of things X

 

[Bolding]

But if you knew the theory what they said would make sense surely? It's only because you don't that it is like listening to a foreign language 🙂

If you knew which arabic letters & words meant what on paper, would you necesserely be able to understand or speak the language also?

You don't give a child who just spoke his first words a bunch of books & start teaching him grammar, do you?

 

[aldevis]

Can you say a little more about what catching a singer involves?

He sings.
We kind of know the keys (not always the same).
He might jump on the bridge, change tune, improvise a medley, start dancing...
We must keep going.

Sinatra to "Can't take my eyes"

Audience loves him

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

But if you knew the theory what they said would make sense surely? It's only because you don't that it is like listening to a foreign language 🙂

Jx

The sad part about that particular workshop was that I did know "the theory" the tutor seemed to be making comprehension as difficult as possible. Unfortunately I have come across some musicians and tutors who consider themselves iniates in an exclusive inner circle who cannot or refuse to find a way to cast their pearls before swine in plain english. You are right, there are too many occasions when I drown in theoretical concepts, and rather than struggle I give up and just play in my own inimitable way.

 

[Jeanette]

If you knew which arabic letters & words meant what on paper, would you necesserely be able to understand or speak the language also?

You don't give a child who just spoke his first words a bunch of books & start teaching him grammar, do you?

The theory goes beyond the Arabic letters and words Bolding. Like the child it is the starting point and very tip of the ice Berg.

You know I used to and still do read some threads on here and they are like a foreign language but slowly now some of them make a little sense. Using your analogy though I am still at the Janet and John stage 🙂

Jx

 

[aldevis]

If you knew which arabic letters & words meant what on paper, would you necesserely be able to understand or speak the language also?

You don't give a child who just spoke his first words a bunch of books & start teaching him grammar, do you?

Children learn faster and in a different way.
If I gave you a latin text, grammar would be necessary, or it would be impossible to kno who is doing what.

English is simpler, as are some genres, like blues in its simpler form.

"Boom boom" and "Blues for Alice" have a lot in common, but you need a lot of "grammar" for Alice, and a lot of feel for Boom Boom

 

[Jeanette]

The sad part about that particular workshop was that I did know "the theory" the tutor seemed to be making comprehension as difficult as possible. Unfortunately I have come across some musicians and tutors who consider themselves iniates in an exclusive inner circle who cannot or refuse to find a way to cast their pearls before swine in plain english. You are right, there are too many occasions when I drown in theoretical concepts, and rather than struggle I give up and just play in my own inimitable way.

Some teachers do leave a lot to be desired, a good one should pitch it at your level but difficult sometimes 🙂

Jx

 

[aldevis]

You are right, there are too many occasions when I drown in theoretical concepts, and rather than struggle I give up and just play in my own inimitable way.

Wait: the more I practise a tune in a methodic way, the closer I get to the enlightened phase of ignoring theory. (Not as contradictory as it sounds)

 

[Bernie]

thats nonsense, its instant singing a phrase you have just listened to, and while once you have learned it on an instrument you may retain it if you play it often thats not the case if you have to transpose it, its very easy transposing a phrase/melody when singing, its very difficult to do as quick on an instrument

Thinking about this discussion earlier on this evening I played God Save The Queen starting on various random keys on the sax. It was pretty much instant. Slower and more mistakes in keys I don't play much. I don't think I've ever played the national anthem before. How easy you find this sort of thing depends on how you learn. I've learned the sax by ear, by playing and improvising on tunes I know. That's all I want to do, so that's all I've done.

 

[Jeanette]

Thinking about this discussion earlier on this evening I played God Save The Queen starting on various random keys on the sax. It was pretty much instant. Slower and more mistakes in keys I don't play much. I don't think I've ever played the national anthem before. How easy you find this sort of thing depends on how you learn. I've learned the sax by ear, by playing and improvising on tunes I know. That's all I want to do, so that's all I've done.

I envy you that ability, is it something that has taken time or could you always do it quite easily?

 

[Tenor Viol]

I suspect the people best placed to tell us that are those that understand the theory. We may not need it to improvise but I strongly suspect you may do a better job if you have it.

Slightly off topic but I was talking to my tutor tonight who heard a guy playing who thought he was the bees knees as he had lots of fancy licks but he was out of time and out of tune. He probably thought he didn't need sax lessons.

Sometimes we don't know how useful something is until we have it 🙂

Jx

You never know when your music theory/knowledge will be useful. I had an interesting experience at band tonight. We are sight-reading our way through brand new, freshly composed music, to be performed at the Bridgewater Hall in Manchester in April. The score has been written using Sibelius and the parts created. Something has gone awry with the 'create parts' process as some of the parts have come out with the 'right' notes, but notated in the wrong clef and so showing a huge number of leger lines to indicate pitch. For several movements, my tenor sax part should have been in the range of middle A (2nd space treble clef) to F# (5th line treble clef). It was written in bass clef... with a ridiculous number of leger lines.

I could play it - I understood what had happened, I can read bass clef, and I could work out what he notes were - GAB are common on cello in bass clef, although more often shown in tenor clef. The C#DEF# above that were rather more challenging. My colleagues who do not read bass clef were stuck. We should have correct parts next week.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Thinking about this discussion earlier on this evening I played God Save The Queen starting on various random keys on the sax. It was pretty much instant. Slower and more mistakes in keys I don't play much. I don't think I've ever played the national anthem before. How easy you find this sort of thing depends on how you learn. I've learned the sax by ear, by playing and improvising on tunes I know. That's all I want to do, so that's all I've done.

Jolly good.
Other people like to play jazz. For that they find it is very useful to know about chords and stuff.

 

[Jeanette]

I think I missed your original point @Bolding, sorry 🙂

Jx

 

[Bolding]

Children learn faster and in a different way.

Connecting your brain to the sax, is the same as connecting it to youre first instrument, your voice.
In my own experience, it has been easier.

If I gave you a latin text, grammar would be necessary, or it would be impossible to kno who is doing what.

I'm sure some educated guess work could master even the most tight arsed latin.

 

[Tenor Viol]

The sad part about that particular workshop was that I did know "the theory" the tutor seemed to be making comprehension as difficult as possible. Unfortunately I have come across some musicians and tutors who consider themselves iniates in an exclusive inner circle who cannot or refuse to find a way to cast their pearls before swine in plain english. You are right, there are too many occasions when I drown in theoretical concepts, and rather than struggle I give up and just play in my own inimitable way.

That's just poor teaching - sounds like an ego trip. It's fine if he wants an aesthetic and esoteric conversation/discussion, but that should be separate and for those who wish to, otherwise it is just self-indulgent. I like to discuss early music, but I do that with other early music afficianados, or with people who have expressed an interest: there's no point in doing that with people who do not have that interest or who do not wish to.