Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[aldevis]

And if you're like me you'll make a better job of it if you spot what the key is and know (and/or hear) that the first note of the second phrase is the 5th of that key, and so on, rather than find one note at a time.

Crossing posts

 

[Bernie]

• You'll have to listen to where the song is going?

No, you already know the song, you know where it's going, you just don't know the names of the chords.

 

[BigMartin]

No, you already know the song, you know where it's going, you just don't know the names of the chords.

In what form do you hold that knowledge in your head? When you've played 10 (or 50) other songs, how do you jog your memory of how the first one goes without some sort of shorthand reminder like key centeres and chord names?

 

[Bernie]

And if you're like me you'll make a better job of it if you spot what the key is and know (and/or hear) that the first note of the second phrase is the 5th of that key, and so on, rather than find one note at a time.

If you sang American Pie you wouldn't need to find one note at a time would you? Well that's how playing by ear (without theory) works.

 

[Bernie]

In what form do you hold that knowledge in your head? When you've played 10 (or 50) other songs, how do you jog your memory of how the first one goes without some sort of shorthand reminder like key centeres and chord names?

The same way you know the tunes of all the thousands of tunes (I guess) you can sing.

 

[Jez Watson]

there is a massive difference between singing a song you know and playing it on an instrument, the voice is hard wired to the brain/ear, if you can hear it in your mind then it comes out of ones mouth, translating whats in your mind/ear to an instrument is a skill that is much more complex

 

[Jeanette]

there is a massive difference between singing a song you know and playing it on an instrument, the voice is hard wired to the brain/ear, if you can hear it in your mind then it comes out of ones mouth, translating whats in your mind/ear to an instrument is a skill that is much more complex

I can sing a song, not necessarily in tune but agree playing it on sax is a different skill altogether 🙂

Jx

 

[aldevis]

The same way you know the tunes of all the thousands of tunes (I guess) you can sing.

I don't know the correct form of many songs. Usually just the main melody.
Still I am not sure I could sing the bridge of "Miss Jones"
Also different bands can have different arrangements. Think "Mack the Knife": does it go "higher" (=modulates up a semitone)? When? Bobby Darin, Frank Sinatra or Louis Armstrong's version?

Theory gives us the tool of doing it right without having to memorize all this.

 

[BigMartin]

The same way you know the tunes of all the thousands of tunes (I guess) you can sing.

Tunes, maybe. Harmony is (for me) a very different story.

 

[jbtsax]

Why write them down when ABRSM exam syllabus stipulate they should be played from memory? Yes I could do it, if required, but to what end? It would be pointless and not enhance my enjoyment of music at all. I do however enjoy playing scales etc with my eyes closed.

That's a great question. The point is to reinforce the visual recognition of each scale, its key signature, or accidentals required if written without using a key signature. Learning scales can be a visual, tactile, and aural process. By incorporating all three types of learning it serves to help facilitate both the memory and recall of the scales thereby taking ones "musicianship" to a higher level.

I also enjoy playing memorized music and improvising with my eyes closed as well. It seems to help by removing any visual distractions and helps me to concentrate on listening.

 

[Bernie]

there is a massive difference between singing a song you know and playing it on an instrument,

Not when you've learned how to do it.

 

[Bernie]

Tunes, maybe. Harmony is (for me) a very different story.

If you improvise, can you tell when you play a note that doesn't fit the chord?

 

[Bernie]

I don't know the correct form of many songs. Usually just the main melody.
Still I am not sure I could sing the bridge of "Miss Jones"
Also different bands can have different arrangements. Think "Mack the Knife": does it go "higher" (=modulates up a semitone)? When? Bobby Darin, Frank Sinatra or Louis Armstrong's version?

Theory gives us the tool of doing it right without having to memorize all this.

You mean written music gives you the tool. Theory itself doesn't tell you the correct form of a song. The question we're investigating is "do we really need theory?"

 

[Bernie]

That's a great question. The point is to reinforce the visual recognition of each scale, its key signature, or accidentals required if written without using a key signature. Learning scales can be a visual, tactile, and aural process. By incorporating all three types of learning it serves to help facilitate both the memory and recall of the scales thereby taking ones "musicianship" to a higher level.

Guy I sat next to at the improvisation workshop was red hot at scales and theory. He would say things like "I wonder why that chord is an Ab diminished when there's a D in the melody?" It didn't help him improvise at all, in fact it got in his way, he was occupied with reading the chords and theorising about what notes to play, instead of engaging with the sound. Musicianship without musicality?

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

That's a great question. The point is to reinforce the visual recognition of each scale, its key signature, or accidentals required if written without using a key signature. Learning scales can be a visual, tactile, and aural process. By incorporating all three types of learning it serves to help facilitate both the memory and recall of the scales thereby taking ones "musicianship" to a higher level.

Remember we are talking saxophone here on this forum. How do my eyes reinforce what is an aural and tactile conception? Musicians who use their eyes may find it useful keyboards, strings, percussion, etc but I can't say I know any saxophonists relying on their eyes as an aid to playing, or is it all done by mirrors?

 

[aldevis]

You mean written music gives you the tool. Theory itself doesn't tell you the correct form of a song. The question we're investigating is "do we really need theory?"

What do you consider 'theory' then?
I use my harmonic knowledge to map the tune, whether I am reading or trying to catch a singer that doesn't know music (it is my Saturday gig)

 

[aldevis]

Remember we are talking saxophone here on this forum. How do my eyes reinforce what is an aural and tactile conception? Musicians who use their eyes may find it useful keyboards, strings, percussion, etc but I can't say I know any saxophonists relying on their eyes as an aid to playing, or is it all done by mirrors?

Saxophone is not as intuitive as a guitar or a piano. We need more abstraction (usually)

 

[Jeanette]

The question we're investigating is "do we really need theory?"

I suspect the people best placed to tell us that are those that understand the theory. We may not need it to improvise but I strongly suspect you may do a better job if you have it.

Slightly off topic but I was talking to my tutor tonight who heard a guy playing who thought he was the bees knees as he had lots of fancy licks but he was out of time and out of tune. He probably thought he didn't need sax lessons.

Sometimes we don't know how useful something is until we have it 🙂

Jx

 

[jbtsax]

Remember we are talking saxophone here on this forum. How do my eyes reinforce what is an aural and tactile conception? Musicians who use their eyes may find it useful keyboards, strings, percussion, etc but I can't say I know any saxophonists relying on their eyes as an aid to playing, or is it all done by mirrors?

Am I missing something here? Playing from written music is a visual activity. We read scales when we are learning to play them. Music is made up of pieces of scales and chord like intervals. Many times when reading a very technically challenging solo I have recognized a passage as being all or part of a chromatic scale. I don't have to read each individual note, I just notice where it begins and ends and play the pattern I recognize as the chromatic scale.

Perhaps the better answer to "What is the point of writing out the scales?" is that anyone who can't do that really does not know their scales.

 

[Alice]

I suspect the people best placed to tell us that are those that understand the theory. We may not need it to improvise but I strongly suspect you may do a better job if you have it.

Slightly off topic but I was talking to my tutor tonight who heard a guy playing who thought he was the bees knees as he had lots of fancy licks but he was out of time and out of tune. He probably thought he didn't need sax lessons.

Sometimes we don't know how useful something is until we have it 🙂

Jx

I agree... I am glad that i'm managing to understand and get to grips with music theory because it has given me freedom and a "pass" to understand all the music that led me to want to learn to play this wonderful instrument in the first place and a lot faster.