Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[Targa]

Some years later, Liverpool Tate Modern had an exhibition of Rothko and those enormous red canvases that were originally hung in a New York loft. Experiencing them as opposed to a print in a small book makes a big difference.

Been there, seen that, but didn't buy the T shirt.

 

[Dibbs]

How interesting: the first note of your page describes exactly that octatonic sound (Bdim and C#dim over G7).
I am pushing Professor Greenberg, a clarinet teacher living in Paris, to write here about his hanging out with Ellington band, in the 60s. He claims that the Duke did not listen to other people music: all his concepts came from people in the band (for whom he had huge consideration).

You're thinking he got that from Gonsalves? Maybe.

About recipes, in some Berklee book there is the "modern block chords" technique: five rules that make you write like a professional. You don't even have to think.

I once wrote a midi plugin for Cubase to do Shearing style block chords automatically. On a keyboard, play a chord in the left hand (which doesn't actually sound) and noodle about in single notes in the right and out come block chords. It was quite fun but just playing chords doesn't give it quite enough information. I ended having to make it work with something like playing a keynote, third (to tell it key and maj/min) and chord root in the left hand to tell it what to do. So if you want Fmaj7 in the key of C play C E F in the LH. Actually I think it ended up more complicated than that. It mostly did the right thing but it was too wierd in the LH to be usable.

 

[Bernie]

Without knowing scales and arpeggios, how can one master the technical demands of his/her instrument?

You don't need theory to know scales and arpeggios.

Without knowing chord spellings, how can one improvise using a lead sheet with just chord changes.

How many of us need to do that?

 

[aldevis]

You're thinking he got that from Gonsalves? Maybe.

Don't think so.
I guess some French or Russian composer (Wikipedia does not help, this time). I remember a Chopin passage where a diminished arpeggio is approached from lower semitones
An obsolete term is "double diminished" as in two diminished chords superimposed.
Ellington had many very literate musicians in his band (that had no hope of getting a job in a classical orchestra). Think Strayhorn....

I once wrote a midi plugin for Cubase to do Shearing style block chords automatically. On a keyboard, play a chord in the left hand (which doesn't actually sound) and noodle about in single notes in the right and out come block chords. It was quite fun but just playing chords doesn't give it quite enough information. I ended having to make it work with something like playing a keynote, third (to tell it key and maj/min) and chord root in the left hand to tell it what to do. So if you want Fmaj7 in the key of C play C E F in the LH. Actually I think it ended up more complicated than that. It mostly did the right thing but it was too wierd in the LH to be usable.

Band in a Box succeeded in this kind of things.
I can recommend you to develop a piano plugin for Logic: the "Jarrettizer".
It would add random moaning and whining to any piano line.

 

[jimmylh]

Without knowing chord spellings, how can one improvise using a lead sheet with just chord changes.


How many of us need to do that?

I think it's is a very useful thing to know. For example, in the "One Note Samba" song I posted, during the solo section I'm basically playing the solo by outlining chord changes as I read them. Not saying it sounds great, but as a beginner it at least gives me an idea of what notes are going to sound good which ones to avoid. By the time my ears hear a sour note that I've hit, it's already too late for the listener. As time goes by and I play the song over and over I'll get a better solo down. In the mean time, knowing that bit of "theory" will speed up the process in my opinion.

 

[aldevis]

You don't need theory to know scales and arpeggios.

Do you just memorize fingerings without understanding the tone/semitone or the interval grid?
If an arpeggio is 1358 of a scale, that counts as theory.

How many of us need to do that?

Everyone that improvises on a harmonic progression that hasn't been heard before.

 

[Bernie]

Do you just memorize fingerings without understanding the tone/semitone or the interval grid?
If an arpeggio is 1358 of a scale, that counts as theory.

Think about what people do when they sing.

Everyone that improvises on a harmonic progression that hasn't been heard before.

Pff. If that's how you want to spend your time, you're welcome to it.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Pff. If that's how you want to spend your time, you're welcome to it.

Thus dismissing everybody that plays in big bands as time wasters.

Nice.

Hmm...

Perhaps you're kidding - in which case you could do with a few of these:
🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

 

[aldevis]

Think about what people do when they sing.

Singing CDEFG or C#D#E#F#G# needs the same skill level (in the middle register)
Playing the same on saxophone requires hours of practise.

Pff. If that's how you want to spend your time, you're welcome to it.

I do worse: I write things unheard before, and luckily I work with people can play that, and make music.

 

[Bernie]

Thus dismissing everybody that plays in big bands as time wasters.

You're a bit of a trouble-maker aren't you Nick. I didn't dismiss anybody, didn't say anybody was a timewaster, I just don't want to spend my own time doing that.

 

[Chris]

• So here's food for thought, for players with no theory. If you have your average jazz standard, that doesn't remain in on key for ever and a day. You'll have to listen to where the song is going? if you do you'll be reacting to the music and on most tunes you'll be playing behind the changes, even more so on quicker ones, never in control of them. You won't be able to anticipate what is going to be played, even more so is you have a good pianist as he/she will be improvising on the written changes with various subs etc. Knowing the written ones will let you know where they can go.

 

[jbtsax]

You don't need theory to know scales and arpeggios.

A knowledge of scales and arpeggios can be demonstrated by doing all of the following:

1. Write out all 12 major scales and all 36 minor scales.
   
2. Play all the major and minor scales.
   
3. Write the chromatic scale ascending and descending.
   
4. Play the chromatic scale.
   
5. Write out all of the major and minor arpeggios.
   
6. Play all of the major and minor arpeggios.
7. Write out the two whole tone scales and play them.
8. Write out the three diminished scales and play them.

 

[Jeanette]

@jbtsax Does the Chromatic scale change going up and down?

Just wondering why write that one up and down and not the others

Jx

 

[aldevis]

@jbtsax Does the Chromatic scale change going up and down?

In writing it does.

 

[jbtsax]

@jbtsax Does the Chromatic scale change going up and down?

Just wondering why write that one up and down and not the others

Jx

As you know, many notes can go by two different names called "enharmonics" like Eb and D#. It is a common practice when writing out the chromatic scale to use sharps when the scale is ascending and flats when the scale is descending.

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

A knowledge of scales and arpeggios can be demonstrated by doing all of the following:

1. Write out all 12 major scales and all 36 minor scales.
   
2. Play all the major and minor scales.
   
3. Write the chromatic scale ascending and descending.
   
4. Play the chromatic scale.
   
5. Write out all of the major and minor arpeggios.
   
6. Play all of the major and minor arpeggios.
7. Write out the two whole tone scales and play them.
8. Write out the three diminished scales and play them.

Why write them down when ABRSM exam syllabus stipulate they should be played from memory? Yes I could do it, if required, but to what end? It would be pointless and not enhance my enjoyment of music at all. I do however enjoy playing scales etc with my eyes closed.
Consider at a birthday party you are playing an instrument with which you are competent and someone stikes up happy birthday in the 'wrong' key. If you are like me and most reasonably capable musicians you will tranpose on the fly by instinct, and not have to rely on the theoretical mathematical relationships of dots on a page.

 

[Jeanette]

Consider at a birthday party you are playing an instrument with which you are competent and someone stikes up happy birthday in the 'wrong' key. If you are like me and most reasonably capable musicians you will tranpose on the fly by instinct, and not have to rely on the theoretical mathematical relationships of dots on a page.

But if you are like me and take a logical approach to everything you might 🙂

Jx

 

[aldevis]

Why write them down when ABRSM exam syllabus stipulate they should be played from memory? Yes I could do it, if required, but to what end? It would be pointless and not enhance my enjoyment of music at all. I do however enjoy playing scales etc with my eyes closed.

Think of the amount of fingers moved to play C# D# E# (aka F). It does not feel like you are doing tone steps.
Writing them down gives an abstract concept of the sounds and functions. Until it will become as natural as singing.

 

[BigMartin]

Consider at a birthday party you are playing an instrument with which you are competent and someone stikes up happy birthday in the 'wrong' key. If you are like me and most reasonably capable musicians you will tranpose on the fly by instinct, and not have to rely on the theoretical mathematical relationships of dots on a page.

And if you're like me you'll make a better job of it if you spot what the key is and know (and/or hear) that the first note of the second phrase is the 5th of that key, and so on, rather than find one note at a time.

 

[aldevis]

Consider at a birthday party you are playing an instrument with which you are competent and someone stikes up happy birthday in the 'wrong' key. If you are like me and most reasonably capable musicians you will tranpose on the fly by instinct, and not have to rely on the theoretical mathematical relationships of dots on a page.

I've heard the worse train-wrecks on that songs. Even from good bands.
Why?
If you play it in C major, it starts from a G note (ha-) and on "you" it is on the dominant (G chord).

Also it is in 3/4