Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

Looks like this thread has run its course already, but having followed it all the way, I thought I'd share a couple of thoughts.

As a lifelong academic, I found the main tension in this thread reminiscent of several others. For example, I remembered a heated debate following a seminar by a famous economist in which a couple of people argued that there was no point to economic theories - economics is just what happens (i.e., what people do). I remembered taking a course in modernist fiction in which we read some amazing writing, but also did some very heavy-duty literary criticism. I remember wondering at the end of it whether learning to apply literary theory had enhanced my appreciation of the works or mostly distracted me from fully absorbing the goodness in the books. In the fields of mental health, there are lively debates that address whether viewing human experience and motivation through a particular theoretical framework is helpful or dogmatically constraining. It's also not unusual to come across engineering types who can't fathom why mathematicians feel the need to prove things when running a few cycles of parameter estimation and tolerance testing on plausible models gets things built well enough - people built buildings that still stand and look gorgeous long before the maths of statics were formalised.

As a younger person discovering Western classical music (having grown up in a non-Western tradition), I read liner notes packed with erudite theoretical explications of composers' devices and interpreters' nuances and wondered whether understanding what they said would add to the experience of listening to the pieces. I suspect everyone has heard pieces of music that didn't touch them, but were highly regarded by people whose musical knowledge and taste we admired (recall the thread "Who's afraid of John Coltrane" in this very forum). It's not unusual to be told then that we'd get it if we understood the structure of it. But is appreciating Coltrane for his structure the same as being moved to tears by the soundtrack of Cinema Paradiso?

The aesthetic and analytical are not often of the same mind. Listening and playing by ear or by structure are complementary, which is what the views in this thread highlights, I suppose. But the key point for me is that we lose out when we dismiss a theoretical apparatus that is generative, i.e., helps us to do new things. Any child taking the ABRSM Grade 5 theory exam who has been taught a chord-based method of completing an 8-bar melody will testify that Western music theory is gloriously generative. A heavily theoretical approach to music production or appreciation may or may not be everyone's thing, and it needn't be. But even the most instinctive listener and player of music should see that music theory can guide the creation of awesome tunes, whether this is done on the fly on stage or over years at the composer's desk.

A final thought on this, Bernie?
 
It's not unusual to be told then that we'd get it if we understood the structure of it.
Indeed, it's not at all unusual. But, speaking for a sample of 1, I don't agree. I don't think I've ever changed my opinion of a piece of music by "understanding" it. I can understand some very fast and intricate banjo picking but I'm never going to like it. I get what Gerald Albright (for instance) does on saxophone but, because I don't like his tone, I struggle to listen to him. My reaction to a piece of music is not exactly what you'd call cerebral - it's much more gut. Understanding makes bugger all difference to that.
 
Listening to a piece of music to appreciate it seems like a rather pointless activity.
I suppose you could compare it to the way I might go and see some art or watch a TV programme about an artist or an art movement, if you see it or have it explained then you can know what it is and why the artist painted it. Then when you say you don't like it and someone says that's just because you don't understand it you can make them cry.
 
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It's also not unusual to come across engineering types who can't fathom why mathematicians feel the need to prove things when running a few cycles of parameter estimation and tolerance testing on plausible models gets things built well enough - people built buildings that still stand and look gorgeous long before the maths of statics were formalised.
I can answer that one. The point (for engineers, anyway) of learning to prove things is that it helps you to understand the definitions of the mathematical constructs you're using. This in turn helps you to build relevant but tractable models of your bridges, etc. Of course, they never believe this when you tell them.

Also, they didn't build suspension bridges (for example) before the maths was formalised. The trials and errors might have been rather expensive and inconvenient.

There are parallels in music. Could Stravinsnky (or Beethoven for that matter) have written much of his stuff wiothout a good grounding in theory? I doubt it. Music had become too complex for that.
 
I guess the explanation of why a difficult piece of music is so wonderful might help me appreciate it, but not to enjoy listening to it.

Before I heard Wagner's "Das Rheingold" for the first time, I read Shaw's commentary on it, and I am sure that it increased my enjoyment of the opera, because I perceived what was going on from a different perspective. But in this case he was commenting more on the plot rather than the musical structure.
 
As a graduate student in music education, one of the required upper level courses was a music analysis class. I had never been a fan of Brahms and so I stayed after class to protest my being assigned Brahms' 4th symphony. I told the instructor that I didn't care for Brahms music and would like to be assigned a different composer. His reply was, "That's why Brahms' 4th symphony is the perfect assignment for you".

To make a long story short, the 4th Symphony by Brahms is today one of my favorite pieces to listen to. The repeated listening and score study required to analyze the piece transformed my opinion of the piece. I didn't like Brahms' music initially because I had never really listened to it.

Time and again I passed out a challenging contest piece to my 7th grade band that stretched their abilities both technically and musically that they "hated" at first only to have that be their favorite piece of music by the time they mastered it.

My post is on topic in this thread because musical form and the development of themes and motifs is an important part of "music theory". Through listening and analysis one catches a glimpse of what was in the composer's mind as the work was crafted which leads not only to an appreciation of the work itself but also the skill of the "craftsman".
 
I guess the explanation of why a difficult piece of music is so wonderful might help me appreciate it, but not to enjoy listening to it.

Rhys

From my experience, I have a very specific counterexample ...

I'd heard Louis Armstrongs West End Blues off and on, and ignorant listener that I was, it hadn't made a big impression on me ...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEVHfrrj7o


Then, I read this book ..
Gunther Schuller's Early Jazz - link should take you to the start of the relevant passage

The full explanation he gives was absolutely fascinating to me, and especially, it placed me in a context where he showed me that the things that Louis was doing, were new and fresh at the time.

And now when I listen to that recording, I am amazed that I was ever dismissive of it. I love listening to it, and part of that is that I know so much more and can hear so much more because of that knowledge.

Another discussion of it here: The Wonderful World of Louis Armstrong: 80 Years of West End Blues

I'm sure that part of this is down to my own nature, I'm a true geek for knowledge and facts. Of course, others may not feel the same way about it. But for me, it is clearly the case that knowledge about something brings appreciation, yes, but real enjoyment too.
 
I'd heard Louis Armstrongs West End Blues off and on, and ignorant listener that I was, it hadn't made a big impression on me ...
Armstrong's "West End Blues" is one of the very few pieces that have wowed me on first listening and which I still enjoy - most records I hear that I like on first listening soon bore me. I know nothing about the history or theory of this music but it reaches parts that I didn't know were there. As for Armstrong's trumpet intro, it might get my vote for the best bit of music ever.
 

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