Saxophones Couturier-Lyon&Healy-Holton

[PigSquealer]

Must be an optical thing, but that lower thread looks 'steep' almost like a 2-start to me! My 'York' tenor has these on it, and I am learning here, having so far just kind-of thought 'no-adjustment-that's-disappointing'.

I agree. That lower looks like it was screwed into something close. but not exactly same thread.
2 start ? I’m guessing that’s what we here describe as cross threaded. Aka skewed going in.
Don’t worry about the ware. Swedge them if needed.

 

[PigSquealer]

@turf3 here’s another archive picture of a Holton correctional oh shucks fix.

 

[mark_addy]

I agree. That lower looks like it was screwed into something close. but not exactly same thread.
2 start ? I’m guessing that’s what we here describe as cross threaded. Aka skewed going in.
Don’t worry about the ware. Swedge them if needed.

That's funny 🙂 2-starts are used where you need loads of axial movement for not much rotation, like some machine-slide screws. They look 'funny' because the angle on the thread is 'steep'. There are 2 'beginnings' to the thread in every revolution, looked at from the 'cut' end. Trying desperately to get back to music - like that LP which Monty Python allegedly cut where the needle can fall into one of two paralell spirals, and depending on luck a completely different (half-length) side plays!

 

[JayeNM]

The SN# will be 201xxx and up on Collegiate not five digits. Beaufort SN’s I don’t know.
Simultaneously Holton was making SOP’s at Elkhorn. SN# 30,000-36,000.

Ok, so...

Felix's chart shows Holtons with five digits.

You are saying that early Collegiates, made at Coutrurier/L&H factory, are all 6 digit ?

While horns made at Holton factory (not marked Collegiate) roughly same period, were the 5 digit ?

 

[turf3]

Ok, so...

Felix's chart shows Holtons with five digits.

You are saying that early Collegiates, made at Coutrurier/L&H factory, are all 6 digit ?

While horns made at Holton factory (not marked Collegiate) roughly same period, were the 5 digit ?

I'm not sure that ALL early Collegiates are Couturier/L&H/Laporte factory...

It also appears from one of PS's previous posts, that the SNs starting at 200,000 might only have started with L&H's takeover. I guess that those before that wouldn't have been labeled "Holton Collegiate", though.

Is it clear that Holton Collegiate model started with the acquisition of those designs and factory from L&H? Or did that branding exist before that event? (I don't know!)

 

[PigSquealer]

Ok, so...

Felix's chart shows Holtons with five digits.

You are saying that early Collegiates, made at Coutrurier/L&H factory, are all 6 digit ?

While horns made at Holton factory (not marked Collegiate) roughly same period, were the 5 digit ?

Yes. 200,000 & up are LaPorte made. Notice another difference. They have a SN# in a straight line. Holton’s have the sunrise style. Holton did have a straight line SN until around 1924-25 SN 15,000-18,000. I’m still researching the SN & date of change.
Factory Holton SN’s were five digit and range was

30982 - 33895	1928
33896 - 36654	1929

 

[PigSquealer]

I'm not sure that ALL early Collegiates are Couturier/L&H/Laporte factory...

It also appears from one of PS's previous posts, that the SNs starting at 200,000 might only have started with L&H's takeover. I guess that those before that wouldn't have been labeled "Holton Collegiate", though.

Is it clear that Holton Collegiate model started with the acquisition of those designs and factory from L&H? Or did that branding exist before that event? (I don't know!)

As you & @JayeNM both know, Felix Jungschlaeger (RIP) put a ton of research into the Holton-Couturier-Lyon & Healy era 1916-1933. Sadly he passed on and his research archives went with him. The only known are on the Sacks the Webb. Saxophender and I continued to study where he left off.

Conversation between Bruce Bailey and Felix confirmed that the first Collegiate 1 was a Soprano. This was at the LaPorte Couturier factory.

Turf, you have a very early Holton Collegiate 1, made at the William Seidel Co.-The E.A. Couturier Band Instrument Co. -Lyon & Healy LaPorte factory under the new ownership of Frank Holton & Company.
Saxophender & I learned that Collegiate S,A,T were made at the laPorte factory. How many is unknown. Holton only operated the factory for maybe a year. Factory closed and continued production of Collegiate line was done at Holton’s Elkhorn factory.

The Holton factory was still standing last time I looked.

 

[turf3]

So, to keep picking at this:

1) Did the "Collegiate" model exist before Holton bought the LaPorte factory, or was it a model created to make use of those horns?

2) After LaPorte closed, did Collegiate instruments immediately transition over to Holton design basis, or did they continue to be made in the Elkhorn factory but to Couturier based designs?

Purely curiosity at this point in history.

 

[PigSquealer]

So, to keep picking at this:
1) Did the "Collegiate" model exist before Holton bought the LaPorte factory,

No.

or did they continue to be made in the Elkhorn factory but to Couturier based designs?

Best anyone can tell the Collegiate brand was started because of the difference. Like Conn & Pan American. Same company, two different brands made at different factories.

2) After LaPorte closed, did Collegiate instruments immediately transition over to Holton design basis, or did they continue to be made in the Elkhorn factory but to Couturier based designs?

Purely curiosity at this point in history.

It’s my understanding that the Couturier tooling & design use ended at the closing of Laporte factory.
I have not compared any Collegiate to a Revelation. I’ve only studied the transition timeline with supporting clues & samples. Mostly pre 1933. Honestly I have no clue if Holton was producing the exact same product under two different names.

 

[PigSquealer]

@JayeNM I received an email notification of your 5 & 6 digit SN question, but I don’t see it here ?