Fake! Counterfeit Selmer Mk VI being openly sold on eBay

[jonf]

This sax has been up for sale several times on eBay Although the seller describes it as a 'copy' it is a counterfeit Selmer, with Selmer propriatory markings. It is thereofre illegal to sell it in the UK. Last time it was listed, I notified eBay, but they did nothing. Presumably they're happy for their marketplace to be used to shift counterfeit items.

1954 era Copy Tenor saxophone | eBay

Tenor saxophone copy of a 1954 era. Priced below it's worth point.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[DavidUK]

Reported. And sent the seller a pleasant "heads up" to remove, scrap, or return for a refund.

 

[jonf]

Thanks @DavidUK

I also reported it but according to eBay it doesn't infringe their policies. What cobblers, it infringes criminal law in this country.

 

[DavidUK]

Seller says:

"Thanks for your information, however its a modified item and is not a counterfeit item, it has been built in the UK by a specialist maker. It is not a counterfeit item it's a near copy, all saxophones are near copy's and within the saxophone trade world that is the norm. But thank you for your advice."

 

[DavidUK]

And more...

He added...

"For reference to break copyright, text has to be in intirety as in a true copy. The product does not do this and the definition remains a copy but obviously a true copy as that would contravene ebay policy, any issues you may have further to this information please refer yourself and any issues directly with ebay.co.uk thank you for your time"​

 

[Pete Thomas]

He’s wrong because he talks about copyright which is not relevant. It is trademark infringement - a different type of IP.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Presumably they're happy for their marketplace to be used to shift counterfeit items.

I doubt they are happy, just not equipped to police such activities. However I’m sure they are happy to take listing fees while assuming their T&Cs absolve them of actual responsibilities

 

[PiccoloPirate]

A saxophone is considered a sculpture,
in common use, under copyright law in the USA.
That's according to my recent conversations with the Copyright Office about a different product.

Trademarks and Patents are different.
Parts of a Sax may qualify for Patents.

"First, copyright protects original works of authorship, including original pictorial, graphic, and sculptural artwork. A work is original if it is independently created and sufficiently creative"

When the above quote applies to an item in common use, it is an interesting challenge.

 

[greenstripe]

Thanks @DavidUK

I also reported it but according to eBay it doesn't infringe their policies. What cobblers, it infringes criminal law in this country.

eBay uses AI to answer these reports and I doubt a human ever sees them.

I have tried to report a very obviously fake Yanagisawa on a couple of occasions that's been on eBay for several months. The seller is adamant that it is genuine, but is so obviously not the genuine article and on a very poor state at that.

I got this response:

Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.

What happened:
We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made by a customer service agent.

If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.

Your reference ID:
2-174386302646

Here are the listings you reported that are included in this decision:
Item: 395034804940 Yanagisawa AWO Alto Saxophone [DAMAGED]


Thank you for being part of the eBay community.

 

[Wade Cornell]

If you want to gripe (I've done lots of it) there is a Chinese company selling new WO series Yanis supposedly made in Japan with a knock off Yani logo etc. I've reported it several times, but nothing has happened.

 

[thomsax]

If you want to gripe (I've done lots of it) there is a Chinese company selling new WO series Yanis supposedly made in Japan with a knock off Yani logo etc. I've reported it several times, but nothing has happened.

Have you reported it to Yanagisawa as well?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'v replied but then thought it best to start a new thread on reporting counterfeits in general.

Fake! - Reporting counterfeits - CafeSaxophone Forum

Have you reported it to Yanagisawa as well? I believe reporting things like this to the trademark owner is the best chance of anything being done. I'm 99.9% sure that eBay has a similar policy to any large site with UGC - they will only act on reports from rights holders. It's the same with...

cafesaxophone.com

 

[Wade Cornell]

Have you reported it to Yanagisawa as well?

I would if there was a way to directly get hold of them and know that an Email sent would go to someone who :
1. Understood English so didn't just ignore/biff it.
2. Was a person who could/would take action.
3. The company could/would take the kind of action necessary to pursue a company in China and somehow prosecute them.
4. Would have any more push than any one of us in threatening Ebay.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Would have any more push than any one of us in threatening Ebay.

They must have. But if they care it's up to them to make it so that "any one of us" can help them do it. Sadly I think eBay will continue ignoring "any one of us"

 

[jonf]

Latest from the seller, when I asked him for a photo of the logo on the bell

"Thanks for your messege, unfortunatly my sons kid requires help in Bristol, I am not at my home address to load up more pictures of the item, needless to say its french logo 1950 type SBA era but not original obviously for copywrite reasons. I trust that quenches your appetite for further information"

 

[Wade Cornell]

Here's the one mentioned earlier: Sax WO37 Silvering Gold Key With Case Sax Soprano Mouthpiece Ligature Reeds Neck | eBay

Says Made in Japan (yet shipped from China?), Yani Logo and model designation, Stamped on the horn "solid silver" (and the description says brass). Price $539.10 USD. What do you think?... $7,000.00 + USD for a real new WO37 Yani . Good thing they are too stupid to put a $5,000 USD price tag on it and really catch suckers.

 

[thomsax]

I've never bought a sax or mouthpiece on a internet site. It's good to inform about these saxes here on CS or any other forum/arena. Or should we stay out of mention and give this "market" oxogen? On the other side it's also hard to judge from a bad internet ad?

I never call or describe my saxes with names and model names that were not official from the manufacturer. Too often I see persons describe their sax is a vintage sax when it's a piece of junk! Why?

A sax selling company is not allow to use a famous, and protected, trademarks in their ads, brochures .... . To describe a sax with words like "S*****0" or M****I in ads and brochures is not legal.

 

[dexdex]

Ethics and law have different timings and scopes. A lot remains up to each of us.
What do I support, what not ?
Platforms like this forum are a good place to inform, share, and increase awareness.
They also put things in perspective, showing differences in perception and practices based on where we live.
What we come across on eBay is ways more “creative” than on local classified ads, at least if I consider my country.