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Tone Classical mouthpiece advice

Mack

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I have been playing soprano sax as my main instrument for a couple of years, using a Vandoren V5 S35 as my mouthpiece, but I have also recently used a Beechler ebonite 7S, which is a bit more manageable but with the same richness of tone.

But I play exclusively classical music these days, so I have just bought a Vandoren Optimum SL5, on the basis that it would give me greater control over tone and dynamics. What a shock. Any note below G risks overblowing up into the next octave; the tone sounds thin and strained; it is just so difficult to get any expression or richness of tone. I am only a couple of days in, but - help!

Why are these narrow tip mouthpieces so difficult to play? I know practice will improve things, but HOW QUICKLY? Are there specific exercises that will help? I have tried a variety of different strength reeds.

If I was quite happy with my tone on a wider mouthpiece, is there a reason to persevere - what benefits do narrower tips bring with practice?
 
are you using the same reed brand and strength as on the wider tips?
Oddly, yes - I use Rico Royal 2 medium with the wider tip mouthpieces - I know that the narrower tips can take harder reeds but when I tried a 3 I had to blow so hard, and not much sound came out.
 
Trouble at the bottom might indicate a softer reed. Come down half a step and maybe try a rico reserve. In fact try lots of reeds. Vandoren mouthpiece, try a vandoren reed?

Check the table on a piece of glass and the rails with feeler guages.

Otherwise it's the selmer S80 for you my lad ;)

Edit. Smaller tip openings sometimes have a shorter lay so maybe the same strength reed as you've been using on a wider tip opening with a longer lay might work.
 
For what it's worth, I have recently come back to the soprano after spending about a year mostly on tenor. I had to play a classical piece at my conservatoire and decided that it was a good occasion to work a bit more seriously on the soprano. I first picked my Vandoren SL4 and used an Alexander Superial DC 3,5 reed fairly some success as my teacher told me I sounded better on soprano than any other saxes.

Then I experimented with a few other mouthpieces, not necessarily on the classical piece, but to expand on my soprano playing and I tried a Pomarico 4 (shown below next to the SL4) that I did not find convincing when I purchased it. But I was probably not too much into soprano back then. I used the same reed as on the SL4 and I really like it. It's somewhat different and may required getting used to. The angle/slope of the beak is quite different as I tried to illustrate on the second image below. SO if you ever get your hands on one of these, it may be worth a try. It only cost me 40€ then.

IMG_20161216_084611851.jpg
IMG_20161216_085357460_HDR.jpg


Now, I'd like to experiment wider opening for non classical. I have a Berg Larsen 60/1 that I have used before and liked. Then I had a quick run through a Berg 65/2, a Selmer Super Session H and an Otto link 5*, all ebonite with an Alexander NY 1,5 reed. The jury is still out and I guess more work is required for me to really find the sweet spot with those. I took a 1,5 reed as I needed something much softer with the Selmer SS H that I had never managed to play before and I stumble upon a pack of those reeds that were so cheap I couldn't resist. The Alexander NY are stronger than the rest of their reeds, so I assumed it would be closer to a 2 and that's apparently true.
 
Thanks for all the replies - but what benefits does playing with a narrower tip actually bring? Easier to hit high notes reliably with a pure sound? Less tiring to play for extended periods? I just want to know whether it's worth persevering.
 
Easier to hit high notes reliably with a pure sound?
Probably that.
A purer (fewer high overtones I guess - less "oboey" if you like) sound generally. Minimises the differences in octaves - a smoother tonal transition from C2 to D2.
More stable intonation. A hard reed on a close mouthpiece is a lot easier to play in tune with than a soft reed on a wide mouthpiece.
I can't say that they're particularly easier to play for long periods - but that maybe more to do with the style of music than the mouthpiece/reed.
I'm inclined to think that achieving a "classical" sound is only worth pursuing if either, a) you really like that sort of sound, b) you need that sound in order to join a conservatoire/orchestra/chamber group, or c) you like a challenge. If it's just you then you can sound however you like.
@David Roach has done a considerable amount of work on this sort of thing - perhaps he'll chip in.
 
Probably that.
A purer (fewer high overtones I guess - less "oboey" if you like) sound generally. Minimises the differences in octaves - a smoother tonal transition from C2 to D2.
More stable intonation. A hard reed on a close mouthpiece is a lot easier to play in tune with than a soft reed on a wide mouthpiece.
I can't say that they're particularly easier to play for long periods - but that maybe more to do with the style of music than the mouthpiece/reed.
I'm inclined to think that achieving a "classical" sound is only worth pursuing if either, a) you really like that sort of sound, b) you need that sound in order to join a conservatoire/orchestra/chamber group, or c) you like a challenge. If it's just you then you can sound however you like.
@David Roach has done a considerable amount of work on this sort of thing - perhaps he'll chip in.

From my POV, on reed instruments generally, the better one can keep the integrity of one's embouchure from top to bottom, the better the extremes of an instrument will work. On a modern sax it is highly desirable to keep the embouchure as still as possible and (theoretically) control intonation by manipulation of the vocal tract alone. Obviously sub-tone necessitates moving the lower jaw back, and sometimes a shift forwards can help extreme high notes, so, to quote that timeless epic 'Pirates of the Caribbean' it's 'more of a guideline'.

Joking apart however, since one tends to use a stiffer reed on a closer tipped mouthpiece - and classical mouthpieces are usually close tipped - one could say that it's easier to achieve good top tones on a classical mouthpiece.

Every mouthpiece, presuming that it's well faced, will generally work best with a certain stiffness of reed and it's really up to the player to build embouchure strength through practice to get to the point where their reed is stiff enough to support the entire range of the instrument with the minimum of embouchure movement. This does not mean that the reed has to be mega-hard, don't rush out and by boxes of #4s! But it does have to have enough resilience to support the top tones whilst allowing the low ones to sound.

My own experience has led me to these guidelines (!). If one were to use a Selmer C* or C** or Vandoren S15 or SL4 (my go-to classical choices), one could get good results by using anything between a 2.5 and 3.5 Vandoren Blue Box reed. Bear in mind that a 2.5 will tend towards a rather light and thin sound and a 3.5 will need a developed strength. I generally use strength 3s on these mouthpieces unless I've been hammering away at Nyman for a couple of weeks in which case I will need the 3.5s (or even a 4 on occasions, but I'm not as young as I was!).

On a Vandoren S6 or 7 or a Pillinger 150/160 I will generally use a Java 3 or a V16 3 or similar (Lupifaro 3 or 3.5; so something commensurately softer for a more open mouthpiece because these reeds come out a half strength softer than Blue Box.

The point I am making is that although the student may need to use a #2 or even less stiff reed, one is unlikely achieve a full range with good tone and intonation until one can comfortably step up to a stiffer reed. And I do mean COMFORTABLY step up; it's no good whacking on a too hard reed when your musculature is not developed to use it!!

Whether it actually comes out sounding classical or otherwise is not much to do with this, because the sound one makes is governed by the sound in one's head. I know a very fine Jazz player who uses almost the identical soprano set-up to my classical one and sounds entirely different to me.
 
I have been playing soprano sax as my main instrument for a couple of years, using a Vandoren V5 S35 as my mouthpiece, but I have also recently used a Beechler ebonite 7S, which is a bit more manageable but with the same richness of tone.

But I play exclusively classical music these days, so I have just bought a Vandoren Optimum SL5, on the basis that it would give me greater control over tone and dynamics. What a shock. Any note below G risks overblowing up into the next octave; the tone sounds thin and strained; it is just so difficult to get any expression or richness of tone. I am only a couple of days in, but - help!

Why are these narrow tip mouthpieces so difficult to play? I know practice will improve things, but HOW QUICKLY? Are there specific exercises that will help? I have tried a variety of different strength reeds.

If I was quite happy with my tone on a wider mouthpiece, is there a reason to persevere - what benefits do narrower tips bring with practice?

A closer piece will give you more control, but only if you make the embouchure changes necessary to make the closer tip work well. In my experience an SL5 will need at least a 2.5 Blue Box and you will need to adopt what is called a 'tight-lip' embouchure which is rather more clarinet-like with the lower lip turned in slightly and the lower teeth supporting the lip somewhat more than you might be used to. The problem of over-blowing is two fold:
1) Because you are not focusing the embouchure and air stream correctly: the issue will disappear when you focus your them correctly.
2) Also, you must (IMHO), use classical reeds on the SL5, French cut reeds, Vandoren Blue Box or V12s are designed for this mouthpiece. Even Javas or V16 will not work as well in my experience.

Basically, close tip classical pieces require a different approach from the really very open S35 you were used to.
 
A little afterthought: A closer tip will give you more control in certain ways. Once you get the hang of it you can be much more precise and refined in a more contained way - not something everyone wants I suppose!
 
A little afterthought: A closer tip will give you more control in certain ways. Once you get the hang of it you can be much more precise and refined in a more contained way - not something everyone wants I suppose!

Thanks David - you have inspired me to continue! I had some V12s strength 2.5 already, and I have ordered some Vandoren blue box strength 3 reeds. I want to continue with the SL5 mouthpiece because all the notes in the upper octave are sounding more clear and consistent, and it is much easier to get the palm key notes to sound properly. But the lower register is still a struggle. I have noticed 2 things. On all notes below middle C there is an irritating, almost mosquito-like whining edge to the notes, so that the tone lacks all richness and depth. Also it is easy to “overblow” (correct term?) into the octave above on any note below E.

I think these 2 things are connected. Is my blowing emphasising the upper harmonics of all the lower notes? This works in my favour when playing the upper octave, I am guessing, hence those notes sounding so good. The lower octave sounds bloody awful though.

Are there any particular exercises which can help to control the upper harmonics on lower notes, or any other advice generally? It is not a mouthpiece problem. Whenever I have tried narrower tip mouthpieces on my alto the same problem happens. I have never made the effort to persevere with those mouthpieces, and maybe the problem would be cleared up in time.
 
Having read Pete's article on harmonics, I guess what is happening is that I am ending up sounding the 2nd or 3rd harmonic too much, and not getting enough 1st harmonic (fundamental). This is really strange because I have always concentrated on developing quite a dark tone, ie, one which which reduces the overtones (2nd+ harmonics). It must have something to do with narrower tip mouthpieces making it easier to produce the upper harmonics. But that would be strange, because I have heard that narrower tip classical pieces have a "darker" sound, because they emphasise the fundamental (1st harmonic).

So...a good exercise would be playing with the octave key on and trying to play the octave down etc...? So reversing the usual harmonic excercises...?
 
Are there any particular exercises which can help to control the upper harmonics on lower notes, or any other advice generally? It is not a mouthpiece problem. Whenever I have tried narrower tip mouthpieces on my alto the same problem happens. I have never made the effort to persevere with those mouthpieces, and maybe the problem would be cleared up in time.
If notes in the lower register want to jump to the octave above, the first thing I would check is the saxophone for leaks---especially toward the top. The second area to address is how the notes are "voiced". Perhaps the best exercise I know of is the start on low Bb and slur up the overtone series as far as you can by changing the position of the tongue, and the airstream. Once that is mastered with some degree of control, then do the same on low B, C, C#, and D. The "voicing" that produces a clear and solid low Bb is the one to use for that note. The "voicing" that produces the Bb an octave higher is the one to use for that note, even when it is played with the regular fingering. The voicing that produces the F2 is the one to use when that note is played with the regular fingering, and so on.

By doing this overtone exercise and moving up by half step, one can "dial in" the voicing that produces the best tone and control for most of the notes in the saxophone's range. The simplest way to describe how the tongue and air work when playing the overtone series is to whistle those notes up and down. That gives a good starting point.
 
Not sop I know but when I went from a 8* mpce to an 11* mpce of similar design concept the higher notes, particularly altissimo were so much closer in sound to the rest of the notes. Much better balanced for me.
 
Funny, I picked up my sop a couple of days ago. First time in over a year. Sounded terrible. It was the voicing as Jbtsax said, and I had to really work to get a decent sound. And, also as Jbtsax said, there's a couple of small leaks making it try and jump, unless I use a gorilla grip....
 
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Longtones and overtones......overtones and longtones.....either way you say it .....its the magic mantra

Sigurd Rascher Top Tones for Saxophones.....That's the overtone ticket. Longtones are self explanatory.

That's how you get your own great sound. learn to love em.
 
Thanks David - you have inspired me to continue! I had some V12s strength 2.5 already, and I have ordered some Vandoren blue box strength 3 reeds. I want to continue with the SL5 mouthpiece because all the notes in the upper octave are sounding more clear and consistent, and it is much easier to get the palm key notes to sound properly. But the lower register is still a struggle. I have noticed 2 things. On all notes below middle C there is an irritating, almost mosquito-like whining edge to the notes, so that the tone lacks all richness and depth. Also it is easy to “overblow” (correct term?) into the octave above on any note below E.

I think these 2 things are connected. Is my blowing emphasising the upper harmonics of all the lower notes? This works in my favour when playing the upper octave, I am guessing, hence those notes sounding so good. The lower octave sounds bloody awful though.

Are there any particular exercises which can help to control the upper harmonics on lower notes, or any other advice generally? It is not a mouthpiece problem. Whenever I have tried narrower tip mouthpieces on my alto the same problem happens. I have never made the effort to persevere with those mouthpieces, and maybe the problem would be cleared up in time.

Actually, I think the Vandoren close-tip pieces can be inherently whiney, you just have to work on the tone quality. You are used to an open piece so it's going to take some application to get used to the SL5.

The Vandoren SL4/5 or S15 pieces have comparatively short-facings and although very stable once you get the hang of them particularly up top, they can be difficult to play well in the lower register. The short facing inhibits the lower notes a bit. It's a 'swings and roundabouts' thing. Of course the instrument needs to be in good working condition (as @jbtsax said) particularly because the short facing is less forgiving in the low register than a long facing.
 

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