Playing the saxophone Adapting a Piano Piece for Sax Quartet - What Options for "Octave Tremolo"

[rhysonsax]

I am adapting a bluesy gospel piano piece for SATB saxophone quartet. At a couple of points the piano plays a rolling octave tremolo in the right hand (treble clef).

Putting that on the soprano sax would be G2 to G1 at one point and D3 to D2 at another point. I don't think that is really playable on the saxophone in a convincing way. Can you suggest any other ways of translating the effect or maybe faking it ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

I am adapting a bluesy gospel piano piece for SATB saxophone quartet. At a couple of points the piano plays a rolling octave tremolo in the right hand (treble clef).

Putting that on the soprano sax would be G2 to G1 at one point and D3 to D2 at another point. I don't think that is really playable on the saxophone in a convincing way. Can you suggest any other ways of translating the effect or maybe faking it ?

Rhys

Probably just a trill on the upper octave note would suffice. If your 2nd voice fits to be an octave below, that could trill too.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I would write exactly what Pete suggests, ie a trill in octaves. You could try a trmolo to another chord note, ie to a 5th or 3rd.

If you know the players and they are capable the other thing to try is what I call flick tonguing:

Flick Tonguing - a stunning saxophone effect - Taming The Saxophone

How to do the saxophone effect called flick tonguing. This is used as an effect but can also be used as an articulation technique.

tamingthesaxophone.com

Listin to bar 4 of the audio example.

 

[rhysonsax]

I would write exactly what Pete suggests, ie a trill in octaves. You could try a trmolo to another chord note, ie to a 5th or 3rd.

If you know the players and they are capable the other thing to try is what I call flick tonguing:

Flick Tonguing - a stunning saxophone effect - Taming The Saxophone

How to do the saxophone effect called flick tonguing. This is used as an effect but can also be used as an articulation technique.

tamingthesaxophone.com

Listin to bar 4 of the audio example.

That's a new one to me. If I understand correctly, it's a bit similar to flutter tonguing but actually touching the tip of the reed rather than the roof of the mouth. I guess that experimenting might wreck a reed or two.

Rhys

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Trills ain't tremolos, is a Gospel fact. 🙄

So, have the high pitch played on one horn then the low pitch on another horn.
Back and forth, depending on the speed of the tremolo,

 

[Pete Effamy]

Trills ain't tremolos, is a Gospel fact. 🙄

You don’t say…

The question is about finding a decent solution on saxophone to a particularly pianistic effect.

 

[Pete Effamy]

So, have the high pitch played on one horn then the low pitch on another horn.
Back and forth, depending on the speed of the tremolo,

You’re joking right?

Right?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Trills ain't tremolos, is a Gospel fact. 🙄

So, have the high pitch played on one horn then the low pitch on another horn.
Back and forth, depending on the speed of the tremolo,

This is not practical though and not necessary IMO.

 

[Pete Thomas]

That's a new one to me. If I understand correctly, it's a bit similar to flutter tonguing

Not really similar to flutter tongue as it involves the tip of the tongue

 

[rhysonsax]

Not really similar to flutter tongue as it involves the tip of the tongue

Is the flick tongue consciously activated using the tongue muscle ? If so, does it use a "T" sound and how fast can you play it ?

When I flutter tongue it feels like the air flow is making the tongue move rather than a deliberate muscular action. It also feels that it involves the tip of the tongue on the roof of my mouth and that the (fast) rate of vibration is not really controllable.

Rhys

 

[rhysonsax]

Trills ain't tremolos, is a Gospel fact. 🙄

So, have the high pitch played on one horn then the low pitch on another horn.
Back and forth, depending on the speed of the tremolo,

I don't think that is going to work and would sound laboured.

The start of this Ray Bryant recording (not the one I am trying to adapt for sax quartet) gives a couple of examples of where a pianist uses tremolo as an effect to emphasise a long note in a melodic line, particularly where that note is a bluesy one - here the flat 5 in bar 1 and then the flat 7 in bar 2.

View: https://youtu.be/xNFLEeExoSM?si=y69z4_H5OK6Pyvvh


I think that if a horn playing were playing a similar line they might well growl on that note.

Rhys

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Will write it out later today. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

What is the name of the piano piece and got a link to a recording?
Thx
PP

 

[PiccoloPirate]

A growl is not a tremolo. 😜
Since it will be a sax quartet, just depends on the tonality played.
With the above example, can you hear it as saxophones?

Seriously, please provide the name of the piece and the music, either played or written if possible.
Thx

 

[Pete Thomas]

It also feels that it involves the tip of the tongue on the roof of my mouth and that the (fast) rate of vibration is not really controllable.

I can't really do flutter tongue very well, but my understanding is that maybe the tongue is hitting the roof of the mouth but caused by a rolling "R" .

If so, does it use a "T" sound and how fast can you play it ?

Yes I suppose it makes a T sound. The fastest I can do is in that sound file, but I cannot control the actual speed. bet then you rarely control the speed of a trill or tremolo either

 

[Pete Effamy]

Anyway...

Suffice to say that when arranging a piano piece for any type of quartet you are going to have to overcome some major hurdles, possibly constantly.

They are:

- deciding which notes of a chord to leave out
- deciding how to make "pianistic stuff" sound decent on single - note instruments
- deciding whether a change of key might better suit the range of your instruments

With the above rendition of Rockin' Chair, you'll be faced with all of these decisions.

Key choice - something that considers the lowest note of your bass instrument - in sax terms the Bari for a standard 4tet - and how you make use of the low Bb or A. In this case though, maybe more attention needs to be paid to the melody. In this Teddy Wilson style it's very light and melodic. High though, as far as soprano sax goes and not wanting to be ear - piercing.

Articulation is another factor. You can't merely transcribe from one instrument to another and expect similar techniques of playing to automatically sound good. Take the short, almost staccato articulation that was / is so great - sounding on piano; if the soprano sax played the same short notes it will probably sound more like a pastiche, and not jazzy. Same goes for some of that chordal movement. It could end up sounding more like Ragtime if not careful.

Which chordal notes to leave out can be either obvious at times, or really hard. Especially if the melody notes don't often take any of the stock notes from a chord. So, you might always be left with just 3 players doing the heavy lifting. You might get around it by having more movement - one or more players playing more than one note in the accompaniment. Great. But what if it's a well - known tune with the accompaniment as well - known as the melody? Like Eric Satie's Gymnopedies for example.

Anyway...

Agreed.

1. Tremelo is not a trill (they have different names to help us remember)
2. Tremelo is not a growl (my dogs tell me this incessantly)

 

[rhysonsax]

Anyway...

Suffice to say that when arranging a piano piece for any type of quartet you are going to have to overcome some major hurdles, possibly constantly.

They are:

- deciding which notes of a chord to leave out
- deciding how to make "pianistic stuff" sound decent on single - note instruments
- deciding whether a change of key might better suit the range of your instruments

With the above rendition of Rockin' Chair, you'll be faced with all of these decisions.

Key choice - something that considers the lowest note of your bass instrument - in sax terms the Bari for a standard 4tet - and how you make use of the low Bb or A. In this case though, maybe more attention needs to be paid to the melody. In this Teddy Wilson style it's very light and melodic. High though, as far as soprano sax goes and not wanting to be ear - piercing.

Articulation is another factor. You can't merely transcribe from one instrument to another and expect similar techniques of playing to automatically sound good. Take the short, almost staccato articulation that was / is so great - sounding on piano; if the soprano sax played the same short notes it will probably sound more like a pastiche, and not jazzy. Same goes for some of that chordal movement. It could end up sounding more like Ragtime if not careful.

Which chordal notes to leave out can be either obvious at times, or really hard. Especially if the melody notes don't often take any of the stock notes from a chord. So, you might always be left with just 3 players doing the heavy lifting. You might get around it by having more movement - one or more players playing more than one note in the accompaniment. Great. But what if it's a well - known tune with the accompaniment as well - known as the melody? Like Eric Satie's Gymnopedies for example.

Anyway...

Agreed.

1. Tremelo is not a trill (they have different names to help us remember)
2. Tremelo is not a growl (my dogs tell me this incessantly)

Thanks Pete. All good points. I often think that many solo piano pieces can be adapted to sax quartet, and have done it fairly successfully a few times. But there has been quite a bit of problem solving and learning for me along the way. I'm still learning.

And I recently completed an adaptation of a recording of a jazz piano piece recorded with bass and drums and ended up putting quite a few bits of the double bass onto the bari sax. The pianist obviously plays differently with and without a bass.

Rhys

PS

And 3. Tremolo isn't the same as Tremelo ! 😀

 

[Taragot]

Trills and Tremolo are one way to make a tone on piano last, which would fade without that. On a sax, that is not necessary. I would add an effect like fluttertounging or a trill or simply play the tone without that.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Thanks Pete. All good points. I often think that many solo piano pieces can be adapted to sax quartet, and have done it fairly successfully a few times. But there has been quite a bit of problem solving and learning for me along the way. I'm still learning.

And I recently completed an adaptation of a recording of a jazz piano piece recorded with bass and drums and ended up putting quite a few bits of the double bass onto the bari sax. The pianist obviously plays differently with and without a bass.

Rhys

PS

And 3. Tremolo isn't the same as Tremelo ! 😀

Yes, I knew you'd done a fair few for your quartet and would be pretty savvy. I forgot to say that in most cases it's a "reduction" rather than an arrangement as such. But with Alka Seltzer too sometimes. Just don't dis the Tremelo. Weren't they a '60's pop group? The Tremeloes? They never sang Tremeloes though. Perhaps they could have been called the Acapulco's - what Shakin' Stevens used to call Accapella sections.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Trills and Tremolo are one way to make a tone on piano last, which would fade without that. On a sax, that is not necessary. I would add an effect like fluttertounging or a trill or simply play the tone without that.

Yep. Read above ^^^

 

[rhysonsax]

Yes, I knew you'd done a fair few for your quartet and would be pretty savvy. I forgot to say that in most cases it's a "reduction" rather than an arrangement as such. But with Alka Seltzer too sometimes. Just don't dis the Tremelo. Weren't they a '60's pop group? The Tremeloes? They never sang Tremeloes though. Perhaps they could have been called the Acapulco's - what Shakin' Stevens used to call Accapella sections.

I like Acapulcos and will borrow that if I may.

Here are Dagenham's finest:

View: https://youtu.be/0AbAw6cbu2s?si=N09kR6HqfWIMsH4t


Rhys