Beginner Sax Mouthpiece/reed combo for Alto

[EssexAlto]

Hi to all.
A short while ago, i took the plunge and bought myself a beginner's Alto. After a week or so of struggling through the first page or two of a starter book with a fair bit of squeaking, i read how its common opinion how cheap mouthpieces that come with budget instruments arent easy to learn with at all, i invested in a Yamaha 4c mouthpiece and stuck with the reeds i have, Rico Royal 1.5 in a pack of 3 hoping that the different mouthpiece might help with consistency.
Obviously my mouth shaping and lip tension arent going to be what they should, but im not too sure what it is that is causing frustration.

My question being: along with that particular mouthpiece, am i likely to have an easier time with a slightly stronger reed? Or is that likely to make it more difficult?
Also is the squeaking likely to be from me applying too much tension and tightness around the reed with my lips as if i drop the pressure im blowing with i get no sound and if i up the pressure the squeak becomes worse lol

 

[Guenne]

easier time with a slightly stronger reed?

I use #2 Rico Royal on a 4C with a beginner (or something equal like Rigotti 2med, Vandoren blue 1,5), even in the very first lesson.
Finding a good lip pressure/bite balance takes some time - finding the right spot for the upper teeth too.
Not to mention air support.
So be patient
If possible, take at least a couple of lessons with a good teacher.

Good luck!

 

[wakyct]

I started with (and still use) Vandoren blue 2.5 with a Selmer S80 C*, which is a close tip size to the 4C. I also tried Vandoren Juno 2 which was a little easier, but after a day or two I couldn't tell the difference anymore.

How long are your practice sessions? For the first month I did no more than 30 minutes a day (every day). Once your mouth gets tired I think it can be kind of a losing battle.

On a slight tangent this page has some good advice, Organise a Saxophone Practice Schedule - best routine for real progress

 

[Guenne]

I started with (and still use) Vandoren blue 2.5 with a Selmer S80 C*,

2,5 Vandoren blue is too ambitious for a beginner normally, even 2.
And Junos are softer than Vandoren Classic (blue), if you want them as strong you'd have to buy #3.

 

[EssexAlto]

I use #2 Rico Royal on a 4C with a beginner (or something equal like Rigotti 2med, Vandoren blue 1,5), even in the very first lesson.
Finding a good lip pressure/bite balance takes some time - finding the right spot for the upper teeth too.
Not to mention air support.
So be patient
If possible, take at least a couple of lessons with a good teacher.

Good luck!

Im getting there with the positioning of my lips i think, and using a bit more pressure from my bottom lip helps stopping just blowing through, but am having a bit of a time controlling it atm.
Only from looking the mouthpiece/reed then "feeling with my tongue" how much im taking into mouth i think im pretty much where the reed seperate ls from the mouthpiece.
Have not long finished today's practicing some basic scales, only a Cmajor and pentatonic scales, along with blowing long notes for 4-5secs and am able to get a fuller sound than before now, perhaps reeds take a little bit of breaking in?
As far as lessons goes, im going to get in touch with local music shops and see if they can point me in the direction of a teacher to start having some lessons with

 

[EssexAlto]

I started with (and still use) Vandoren blue 2.5 with a Selmer S80 C*, which is a close tip size to the 4C. I also tried Vandoren Juno 2 which was a little easier, but after a day or two I couldn't tell the difference anymore.

How long are your practice sessions? For the first month I did no more than 30 minutes a day (every day). Once your mouth gets tired I think it can be kind of a losing battle.

On a slight tangent this page has some good advice, Organise a Saxophone Practice Schedule - best routine for real progress

Ive been practicing for 45mins to an hour each evening, and yes you're right after 30mins or so, i have been finding my cheeks right beside my mouth tiring a bit. Still, is better than last week during which i was putting far too much pressure through my bottom lip and getting a bit on the sore side lol

 

[skeller047]

Royal 2 (or Rico orange box, same reed without the filed bark at the back of the vamp). 2 1/2 in a month or two.

You do need pressure from the lips on the reed, but you also need pressure from the air itself. Make sure you are supporting your blow with your abdominal muscles.

Avoid using your jaw muscle to put the pressure on, just use your lip muscles. That's what causes a sore lip. Sore cheeks no problem - sore bottom lip from your teeth, you are "biting" which is not good either for you or your sound.

 

[Guenne]

Avoid using your jaw muscle to put the pressure on, just use your lip muscles. That's what causes a sore lip. Sore cheeks no problem - sore bottom lip from your teeth, you are "biting" which is not good either for you or your sound.

This could a bit offtopic, but:
Thats right, just a little "pressure" from the lips.
But you need a small "amount" of bite. "Freezing" the jaw muscles makes a "controlled biting" impossible.

I found air puffs used by beatbox saxophonists useful to find the right "lip pressure".
That's the effect that sounds a bit like a cymbal crash.

View: https://youtu.be/6GBfoQeYUEw?t=4


If you have zero lip pressure, you can't do it. If you apply the pressure by clamping the jaw you just get an uncontrolled honk.
If you can do it you just have to add this very light "bite" to get a nice sound.

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Digger2054]

2nd what @skeller047 has said. Seal around the mouthpiece using pressure from side, rather than top and bottom.

I also play an S80 C* on alto, with a #2 java or Lupifaro. Using harder reeds, could result in you putting more pressure on the reed, to effectively narrow the tip opening.

I'm struggling with my Tenor at the mo, and despite thinking I play quite loose and relaxed in my last lesson evidently don't play loose enough, lots of squeaking.

 

[EssexAlto]

Royal 2 (or Rico orange box, same reed without the filed bark at the back of the vamp). 2 1/2 in a month or two.

You do need pressure from the lips on the reed, but you also need pressure from the air itself. Make sure you are supporting your blow with your abdominal muscles.

Avoid using your jaw muscle to put the pressure on, just use your lip muscles. That's what causes a sore lip. Sore cheeks no problem - sore bottom lip from your teeth, you are "biting" which is not good either for you or your sound.

Thats what ive now learnt, using my lip my lip rather than squezzing with my jaw and teeth. Am trying to get used to blowing with mainly my stomach rather than chest too

 

[EssexAlto]

2nd what @skeller047 has said. Seal around the mouthpiece using pressure from side, rather than top and bottom.

I also play an S80 C* on alto, with a #2 java or Lupifaro. Using harder reeds, could result in you putting more pressure on the reed, to effectively narrow the tip opening.

I'm struggling with my Tenor at the mo, and despite thinking I play quite loose and relaxed in my last lesson evidently don't play loose enough, lots of squeaking.

Ahh ok so that could be a factor not helping with the squeaking, too much pressure around the reed?
Ive relaxed the pressure around it, am trying to find the balance point at the moment but going in the right direction, i think lol

 

[Colin the Bear]

Selmer C relates to a Yam 4c
Selmer C* is wider and compares to Yam 5c.
Vandoren Juno are regular cut. Vandoren blue are French cut and are famously more prone to squeaking.

I like Vandoren blue and after 40 years get the occasional chirp if I get tired and lose control.

 

[cjR]

I'm just going to mention a couple of things in case you haven't come across them yet, both are normally covered in beginner method books etc.

Reed placement on the mouthpiece, this can make a difference if it's wrong, and when getting used to doing it it can be easy to knock the reed off centre/wind up with in funny positions while messing with the ligature etc.

Diaphragm breathing - normally accompanied in text by a black and white photo of someone lay on the ground with books on them. This is the kind of thing a teacher is better placed to help with, but worth looking into in the interim.

 

[greenstripe]

As already pointed out get some face to face lessons. This really is the best way of eliminating any potential issues.

I'd also be looking at ligature and reed placement on the mouthpiece.

 

[EssexAlto]

As already pointed out get some face to face lessons. This really is the best way of eliminating any potential issues.

I'd also be looking at ligature and reed placement on the mouthpiece.

Thats what im going to see if can organise, going to go find a local music shop and see if they can point me in the direction of a local teacher

 

[cjR]

Thats what im going to see if can organise, going to go find a local music shop and see if they can point me in the direction of a local teacher

There's an area on this forum you can also post and ask, and there's some websites that can help - superprof is good but works out a little expensive (the site takes a cut from the lesson fees, so lesson fees are above the teachers rates) and I think you need to be signed up (and potentially pay a monthly fee) to make contact. On the plus side a lot of teachers on there seem to offer the first lesson as a free trial. It's a good site to find prospective teachers but I wouldn't recommend using it to book all your lessons/take payment etc once you've found the right teacher.

 

[greenstripe]

Try here, don't know how far in to Essex you are as to whether it may be easier to find a teacher in East London if that's practical.

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[Saxlicker]

The sax sealing properly is another consideration.
I don't know if yours is new or used but leaks are possible on either. That shouldn't panic you, it's extremely easy to knock a pad slightly open with your hands at this very early stage (typically a palm key) and with undeveloped embouchure and airstream you may just recognise this as a mouthpiece squeak.
I say this because you have the same issue with 2 separate mouthpieces and of course you may have a pad or 2 with a temperamental seal.
A common issue is the octave lever pad not closing on the pip on the neck properly. A very easy fix once diagnosed.

So reed placement, good technique (hands, posture, airstream, embouchure) and well adjusted sax are all in the mix.
It may seem a long road right now and there is a process of elimination is ahead of you but equally, once it's behind you the experience you've had is somehow invaluable.
Of course if you do get someone along side you that can help the road won't seem so long.

 

[EssexAlto]

The sax sealing properly is another consideration.
I don't know if yours is new or used but leaks are possible on either. That shouldn't panic you, it's extremely easy to knock a pad slightly open with your hands at this very early stage (typically a palm key) and with undeveloped embouchure and airstream you may just recognise this as a mouthpiece squeak.
I say this because you have the same issue with 2 separate mouthpieces and of course you may have a pad or 2 with a temperamental seal.
A common issue is the octave lever pad not closing on the pip on the neck properly. A very easy fix once diagnosed.

So reed placement, good technique (hands, posture, airstream, embouchure) and well adjusted sax are all in the mix.
It may seem a long road right now and there is a process of elimination is ahead of you but equally, once it's behind you the experience you've had is somehow invaluable.
Of course if you do get someone along side you that can help the road won't seem so long.

I read about how important the reed placement was, so made sure it was central and lined up exactly with the sides of the mouthpiece.
Its a new sax, i did check the octave key by blowing into one end of the neck while blocking the other end with my finger and that is sealed well.
I seem to be making a bit of headway now, i think i was squeezing the reed too tight with my lips as well as too much air pressure. Since relaxing both, am able to play a few scales quite smoothly now. Still the odd squeak, but hey, im still in the raw beginner stage lol
Am still to organise some lessons, will start having a look around at the weekend

 

[turf3]

I urge you first to get some in-person instruction (NOT from someone who is primarily a clarinetist!). Second, obtain a copy of "The Art of Playing Saxophone" by Larry Teal, which has an excellent description of how to form the standard saxophone embouchure and the muscles involved in doing so.