Intonation In the Upper Register

[Veggie Dave]

Is there a physical issue that could cause a modern alto to be remarkably sharp in the upper register, from high A upwards?

Or possibly to make the instrument increasingly sharp as you go up the register so that there's something like 40-50 cents difference between the lower and the upper end?

 

[turf3]

Two things come to mind:

1) User error - are you new to playing, are you new to this particular instrument?
2) Mouthpiece pushed way too far in, making short tube notes sharp and (relatively speaking) long tube notes flat.

 

[rhysonsax]

Is it an instrument that is new to you ?

Has this issue just developed on an instrument that was OK previously ?

I find that for me, Keilwerth alto and tenor have tuning issues in the second register when I move across to them from my Selmers or Selmer-type horns. After a good while of blowing and listening the intonation gets better.

As well as those already mention, other possible causes can be:

• an incompatibility with the particular mouthpiece, so try some others
• or the size of the two octave pips. If it is just high A upwards, then that might point to the upper pip (the one on the neck) being a bit too large. This can be sorted out with a little bit of thin plastic tubing inside the hole to reduce the hole size, but do this carefully or take it to a tech. I did that on my SML tenor and it certainly helped considerably.

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

40-50 cents is huge. Like the others say, mouthpiece not at/near optimum position on crook. Or you're doing it.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Ah, so it's the temperature in the shed again.

I really need to find somewhere else to play...

 

[rhysonsax]

Ah, so it's the temperature in the shed again.

I really need to find somewhere else to play...

Does the intonation problem reduce as the horn warms up then ?

Rhys

 

[jbtsax]

Some common causes of sharpness in the upper register or octaves that are too wide are:

• Playing too high on the mouthpiece pitch or "biting".
• Tightening the embouchure as you go higher.
• Playing on too stiff a reed.
• The bore of the saxophone or neck not having enough taper.
• Pushing in to tune a note in the low register with a relaxed embouchure.

A tuning process that works for me on alto is to tune to F#1, then overblow to F#2 and check the octave. Then I finger low B natural and overblow to F#2 to see if that pitch matches the other two. The low B can also be overblown to B3 to compare that pitch with the regularly fingered B3. This procedure checks the short tube notes, long tube notes, octaves, and harmonics. When you find the "sweet spot" on the cork where all of these line up, you have made the sax the best "sounding length" possible.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Ah, so it's the temperature in the shed again.

I really need to find somewhere else to play...

So you've pushed the mouthpiece halfway down the sax to get up to pitch in the shed then?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Of course, a simple check is to place the mouthpiece onto the crook with maybe 1cm left showing (won't be too far out) and check within itself away from playing along with anything or trying to get to A440.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Does the intonation problem reduce as the horn warms up then ?

The problem is the shed is so cold that the horn doesn't really get to warm up.

So you've pushed the mouthpiece halfway down the sax to get up to pitch in the shed then?

Yep.

Of course, a simple check is to place the mouthpiece onto the crook with maybe 1cm left showing (won't be too far out) and check within itself away from playing along with anything or trying to get to A440.

I tried a Selmer 'piece that I found, which doesn't sit quite so high up the cork and the issue was less.

I must try John's tuning advice, too.

 

[Pete Effamy]

What about getting an oil-filled electric radiator and heat the space?

 

[Wade Cornell]

A small electric fan heater pointed at your sax stand works for me and saves on heating the whole room. Leave for five minutes before playing.

 

[Veggie Dave]

What about getting an oil-filled electric radiator and heat the space?

I've got to do something to supplement the infrared heater because it can be utterly soul destroying sometimes.

A small electric fan heater pointed at your sax stand works for me and saves on heating the whole room. Leave for five minutes before playing.

If I'm practising then I can position myself so that the horn is close to the infrared heater but not really when recording.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I must try John's tuning advice, too.

It really helped me and I heartily recommend it. Being all over the place is hard to adjust to.
If the horn is in tune with itself it makes things easier. It seems that if the horn is in tune with itself, you can lip in the rest. Keep the mouthpiece in the same position.
When the baritone is cold I warm up the neck by blowing through it or putting it in a pocket. A warm neck seems to get rid of most tuning issues.

 

[Veggie Dave]

<update> As it's colder than ever outside, and as I've been putting off recording for too long (I have a list of songs people are waiting for) I decided to risk the chance of death threats from the neighbours and record one of the tracks in the living room.

The song is what I assume is classed as EDM, so it's mostly electronic, which means there's very little room for any sort of intonation issues. In a nice, warm room there were no problems at all ... thankfully, because we all know how easy it is to utterly destroy your own self-confidence and mine was severely battered.