Chord Symbol Confusion

[jake_honeywill]

Can anyone tell me what scale / chord fits with the symbol:
'E7 b5 #9'?

I've looked through all my books and on the net `7 haven;t found one single reference to E7 b5 #9. is it the same as E7b9?
I'm referring to the fourth bar of 'walkin shoes' by Gerry Mulligan.
the fisrt few bars being:
G ///
C7 ///
G ///
Bm7b5 / E7b5#9/
Am7 ///
C#m11 / F#7 Bm7b5 /
Am11 / Ab9#11

Thanks,
JAKE

 

[Pete Thomas]

Normally people call this the altered scale. I have my doubts as to whether that's a good name, but why not?

The notes are E F G G# A#(Bb) C D

Some people will call this a "mode" of F melodic minor, ie its the same notes as F melodic minor, but based around a root of E

F G Ab Bd C D E F

I prefer to think of it as an E scale but with the altered notes.

EDIT:

Actually most of the confusion is when they call that chord an E alt. That makes so little sense to me as it could mean E with B5 or #5, b9 or #9. The scale covers all those possibilities

 

[jake_honeywill]

thanks Pete.
the chord C#m11, that's another 'coded' chord isn't it - is it by any chance a lydian dominant?
Wouldn't it be great if everyone agreed on a term or 'quality' (I spose thats what they mean when they say lydian augmented etc) that referred to a scale/chord instead of all these different shorthanded ways writing chord symbols?
you could have the letter 'L' to signify Lydian dominant..
but then I spose you just get used to it like you get used to seeing Emin7 b5 or Emaj, EM, triangle etc..
guess I should learn the scales and just get on with it!

[/quote]

 

[Pete Thomas]

C#m11 is a correct name for a chord. The most obvious scale implied to fit that chord would be a C# Dorian.

I am moving away from the idea of tying in chords with scales, it tends to become too restricting.

Too often people now refer to a chord with a scale name, as if playing a particular scale is the only thing to do on a particular chord.

I think this stems from the Aebersold system. It's OK for learning some basic impro, but even then it can lead to a rather formulaic style IMO.

 

[jake_honeywill]

thanks again for the tip pete.
Its interesting that you mention chords being tied too closely to scales - so I spose as a fledgeling jazz-noodler you could just think Csharp m7 for the Csharp m11 (and throw in the occasional 9th or 11th) chord - right?

Pete Thomas wrote:
C#m11 is a correct name for a chord. The most obvious scale implied to fit that chord would be a C# Dorian.

I am moving away from the idea of tying in chords with scales, it tends to become too restricting.

Too often people now refer to a chord with a scale name, as if playing a particular scale is the only thing to do on a particular chord.

I think this stems from the Aebersold system. It's OK for learning some basic impro, but even then it can lead to a rather formulaic style IMO.

 

[Pete Thomas]

jake honeywill wrote:
thanks again for the tip pete.
Its interesting that you mention chords being tied too closely to scales - so I spose as a fledgeling jazz-noodler you could just think Csharp m7 for the Csharp m11 (and throw in the occasional 9th or 11th) chord - right?

Exactly.

 

[lb]

I know exactly what you mean about the Aebersold-style 'related scale' system of learning improvisation and how it seems to lead to some formulaic playing. It's quite a good way of getting to grips with harmony intially, but in the end most jazz tunes are based on chord progressions, unless (like 'So What', or 'Milestones') they're specifically based on sequences of modes. It took me a while to get weaned off running the related scales, but I'm glad I made the effort - I think it makes improvisations harmonically richer, and gets you thinking about how phrases resolve, in particular.

Not that the Aebersold books aren't useful - quite the opposite, in fact. But my teachers were always very keen to get me thinking in terms of chord tones (and, ultimately, melody) as soon as possible.

 

[monsieursax]

Aebersold is good for working on your own and getting your ear going. I don't really like some of his emphasis on Dorian mode in minor keys, when it plain and simple should be Relative minor (Aeolian Mode). Some of this might be mistakes, as his books aren't entirely free of errors.

I've met Jamey once before. He lives in Indiana (about two hours away) and is a frequent clinician in this area, especially at our state music education convention. He teaches part-time at University of Louisville, too.

 

[tootsweetz]

In Aebersold's defense Monsieursax, If you take a look again, his emphasis on Dorian mode is not for minor keys but for minor chords functioning as a ii chord in a Major key. You are right, the(Aeolian Mode,Relative minor,Pure minor) work best in a minor key.
What frustrates me is all the different names for all the different kinds of minor scales. This becomes very difficult when teaching.
Others just teach to use whatever minor scale sounds good in a particular situation.
Dan Hearle more often says to use the Harmonic minor scale over minor chords. Maybe someone can explain that one better for me?
Still seeking
Arthur

 

[tris]

I made a break in thinking about scales a few years back and it was the best thing that I ever did for my playing. All the scale work was ingrained but I chose to think in terms of chord tones and tensions. To my mind it is more logical.

I find that a lot of scale based playing sounds quite immature.. playing over the changes rather than playing the changes if you catch my drift.

 

[lb]

To my ears the use of the Dorian mode always gives a distinct, um, 'modal' sound which is very much in tension with the whole harmonic basis of 20th century popular song - which, let's face it, is where jazz obtained much of its harmonic language. I think this is heightened by the fact that because a lot of British folk music and traditional tunes are written in the Dorian mode (i.e. basing their chord relationships on a Dorian scale) it has a slight primitive/folk-music flavour to it.

 

[monsieursax]

tootsweetz wrote:
In Aebersold's defense Monsieursax, If you take a look again, his emphasis on Dorian mode is not for minor keys but for minor chords functioning as a ii chord in a Major key. You are right, the(Aeolian Mode,Relative minor,Pure minor) work best in a minor key.
What frustrates me is all the different names for all the different kinds of minor scales. This becomes very difficult when teaching.
Others just teach to use whatever minor scale sounds good in a particular situation.
Dan Hearle more often says to use the Harmonic minor scale over minor chords. Maybe someone can explain that one better for me?
Still seeking
Arthur

True, Dorian should obviously be used in ii-V's and modally composed tunes such as "So What." Listen to "Impressions" as recorded by Coltrane, which has the same chord structure as "So What." Coltrane doesn't imply the Dorian mode as much as the natural minor (and somewhat the harmonic minor which give that extra flavor with the augmented second between the 6th and 7th scale degrees). Aerbersold (if I'm not mistaken) uses the Dorian mode in the given scales for "Impressions." I guess I should have stated that Aebersold seems to use the Dorian as an almost all-purpose minor scale, even in places where historical practice dictates it shouldn't be used. I know this is one minute exception to the rule, but it goes to show that Aebersold shouldn't be considered Canonical Law with jazz theory.

When playing jazz these days, I think less and less of chords and scales and modes, but more of key centers with added "pretty notes." Rather than outlining every scale and chord in the first 8 measures of rhythm changes form, I know the entire opening can be based on the scale of the tonic, and that certain non-scalar notes sound "pretty" in certain places. I find I tend to phrase more and contrive less.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'll use harmonic, melodic, dorian and aeolian with a (tonic) minor. Often with a harmonic I'll go I - V7 - all over a I minor even without the V7 as its nice tension sometimes, e.g.

A C B A G# B D F E C A G F G# B G# A

I like minor 6 and minor major 7 so melodic is good for that. Unless the pianist is playing a minor 7 which can work OK on a tonic minor for a modal feel.

 

[mfox]

some player go more for how many scales can i fit into this solo. and that can be really off putting for the listener..i think a happy balance between flash and melody is the best..

I used to have a residency in a pub in Manchester city center about 20 years ago it was quite close to the RNCM so we would get a lot of music student coming in.. second set we used to invite some up to play we had alsort from sax player to harpist.. i remember one guy who used to come down every weeks sit and watch. one night he had a flute with him so we got him up...
i can remember it like it was yesterday..We were playing billies bounce we all had a few choruses, then this flute player took off.. wow zipping through the SCALES like greased lighting.. about 5 choruses later me and the trumpet player came back in with the head to finish the tune.. after we finished the trumpet player turned to him and said with his straightest face "wow you know a few scales..do you know any melodies?"
he was fast. he knew his stuff but it had no soul.. no center.. he could have played the same way over any tune..

 

[martin_br]

E7 b10 b13
Locrian on E and any acidentals you deem fit.
Not too keen on the scalic approach.
Better to let go and use the tonality,if you get my drift.
8)

 

[martin_br]

Why is my avatar all squashed?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Avatars end up squared in the box on the left. If it satrts off rectangular it will be squished. Try cropping it to a square.