Chord Book Layout Preferred by Saxophonists

[luke_br]

I'd be interested to know what this group would like to see in a Chord Book that is not presently sold in the market. I have a fair collection of chord books (including one by Aebersold, vol. 24, Learn to Improvise Jazz) and they all don't do what I'd like in such a book.

My complaint is that to use a chord book with, e.g., a fake book or sheet music, you need to thumb through an alpha sorted book of indexed chords for help. Is there a better way to organize such a book?

 

[Linky Lee]

I've had a few chord books for guitar etc. But I'm not sure a chord book is necessary for saxophone.

If you know your major and minor scales then the you know everything you need the rest are just alterations ( a few exeptions maybe with the diminished scale and altered chords).

For example if you know D major, you should be fine with any D major chord whatever the extension as the extension relates to the major scale. The same for D minor chords etc.

If I were making a chord book I'd relate it to the chord/scale base of theory.

I'd start with C major, write out the arpeggio then the C major scale, I'd then Write the other chords that the scale can be used. i.e Used as a Dorian tone over D-7, Phrygian sound over E-7b9. Then I'd move on to C minor and through various different chord extensions.

Somehow you'd want to cross reference so that when you come across chord D-7 it would refer you to the C major scale and others.

 

[philthd]

yuk, linky

sure its useful to know that D dorian is the second mode of C major, but its often much more useful to know that D dorian is a D major with a flattened 3rd and 7th.
plus under your system if you were looking up Dm7 you would have to look under C to find D dorian but under F to find D aolian?

ever read a rhyming dictionary? this one is a classic example. everythings sorted not by how it starts but by where its going. i can see some merit in describing your chord/scale choices within the context of different progressions.

that said, im not convinced of the usefulness of such a book, and im sure simon@jw will mention several subtly differing publications that you would be competing against.



of course, by a chord book you could be referring to a book with the changes of various tunes without the dots - in which case there are many ways you could arrange this other than alphabetically - in categories such as variations of blues, variations of rhythm changes, songs in AABA form, modal tunes etc for example
but again, im sure this kind of thing exists too

 

[Linky Lee]

I agree with you PhilthD, I don't like the Scale/Chord system that much myself, but as far as a chord book goes for saxophonists, I think it's probably the most suitable system.

As I said in my first post, I don't think a chord book for saxophone is actually necessary. A book of scales, now that would be helpful though still not necessary.

As you say knowing that Dorian mode is the major scale with b3 and b7 is much more useful and I think the easier way to learn the jazz theory. Therefore a 'scale pattern' book may be useful to someone wishing for a 'chord book' type thing for saxophone.

Major - T T S T T T S
Dorian - T S T T T S T

You'd only need to write out each scale in C as by learning the pattern of intervals to learn any other scale you pick a starting note and do the rest by ear and theory to check it's correct.

This Pattern, Listen, Theory system is how I learn and learnt the scales I know. Then you play around with them in loads of different ways to properly 'learn' the scale.

 

[philthd]

very true linky, theres a huge difference between knowing and knowing

the whole thing reminds me a lot of my bescherelle - occasionally useful for reference but wouldnt really help me when i actually needed it

 

[Simon]

I don't understand the question about a chord book - sounds like it's from a guitarist. These guys need chords box diagrams etc cos there are many different places on the fretboard to voice the same chord and certain voicings a) sound better than others b) make it easier to play a progression.

Far as my playing goes, I've never worried about where I'd start a D Major chord. I know/can hear/can play the notes... what else is there? Inversions? Yep, same notes, different order. I'd agree with Linky about most harmony coming from simple chords.



I'd agree with both phil and Linky's points so far - knowing the parent scale and relative scales (ie D dorian=c major; d dorian=d major with flattened 3rd and 7th) are both useful to know... and even more useful if you can hear them all the time!

Simon

 

[Bobby G]

Yes, there are guitar books available with chord diagrams/fingering, as well as a combination of 'proper music' (i.e. for piano etc) with guitar chords named above the staff, but maybe for someone who doesn't read the dots and plays only by ear a chart of chord progressions for tunes may be useful, but again I suspect this might go back to playing in 'guitarese'.

I suspect the only way (being a player-by-ear myself) to get to grips with it all is to learn to read music, although as an ex-guitar-player with knowledge of chords, scales and a bit of modes I find the dots useful if only for the chord progressions contained therein.

I was at a gig recently (kind of oldschool prewar jazz), and most of the players had no written music of any kind, but a couple of them had printed up the chord progressions, bar by bar, of the tunes they were playing - no dots, just the chords. I spoke to one of them about it, he said it was mainly for reference as he knew all the tunes but sometimes needed to know where he was during a solo. I didn't spot him looking at his music once during the evening.

 

[mfox]

for horn players I think you can't improve on the format of:
head (tune) with written chords ( D- C7 F#o )
and maybe just the chords in bars below the head. just like in most abersold books..

 

[Simon]

So to recap, Bob - this 'saxophone chord book' would be for someone who plays by ear but wants to be able to read the chord symbols written as letters with added # and b symbols plus numbers... er, isn't that just saying "hi i'm an ear player, but is there a way i can read ?". Yep, learn to sightread!

Anyway, if you know the tune by ear inside out, why read?
if you don't know the tune, or have difficulty learning a tune on the first hearing (that's me) and want help, learn to read
if you want to get fast at reading, learn theory cos it'll point out shortcuts and you'll make connections (hopefully) between brain, ears and fingers.

what was the question again?

simon

Bobby G wrote:
Yes, there are guitar books available with chord diagrams/fingering, as well as a combination of 'proper music' (i.e. for piano etc) with guitar chords named above the staff, but maybe for someone who doesn't read the dots and plays only by ear a chart of chord progressions for tunes may be useful, but again I suspect this might go back to playing in 'guitarese'.

I suspect the only way (being a player-by-ear myself) to get to grips with it all is to learn to read music, although as an ex-guitar-player with knowledge of chords, scales and a bit of modes I find the dots useful if only for the chord progressions contained therein.

I was at a gig recently (kind of oldschool prewar jazz), and most of the players had no written music of any kind, but a couple of them had printed up the chord progressions, bar by bar, of the tunes they were playing - no dots, just the chords. I spoke to one of them about it, he said it was mainly for reference as he knew all the tunes but sometimes needed to know where he was during a solo. I didn't spot him looking at his music once during the evening.

 

[Simon]

Too right m'fox, but I suspect cool hand luke is after a real book of aebersold type scale diagrams under every chord... think of carrying that sucker around to a gig!
simon

mfox wrote:
for horn players I think you can't improve on the format of:
head (tune) with written chords ( D- C7 F#o )
and maybe just the chords in bars below the head. just like in most abersold books..

 

[Bobby G]

simon wrote:
So to recap, Bob - this 'saxophone chord book' would be for someone who plays by ear but wants to be able to read the chord symbols written as letters with added # and b symbols plus numbers... er, isn't that just saying "hi i'm an ear player, but is there a way i can read ?". Yep, learn to sightread!

Anyway, if you know the tune by ear inside out, why read?
if you don't know the tune, or have difficulty learning a tune on the first hearing (that's me) and want help, learn to read
if you want to get fast at reading, learn theory cos it'll point out shortcuts and you'll make connections (hopefully) between brain, ears and fingers.

what was the question again?

simon

Bobby G wrote:
Yes, there are guitar books available with chord diagrams/fingering, as well as a combination of 'proper music' (i.e. for piano etc) with guitar chords named above the staff, but maybe for someone who doesn't read the dots and plays only by ear a chart of chord progressions for tunes may be useful, but again I suspect this might go back to playing in 'guitarese'.

I suspect the only way (being a player-by-ear myself) to get to grips with it all is to learn to read music, although as an ex-guitar-player with knowledge of chords, scales and a bit of modes I find the dots useful if only for the chord progressions contained therein.

I was at a gig recently (kind of oldschool prewar jazz), and most of the players had no written music of any kind, but a couple of them had printed up the chord progressions, bar by bar, of the tunes they were playing - no dots, just the chords. I spoke to one of them about it, he said it was mainly for reference as he knew all the tunes but sometimes needed to know where he was during a solo. I didn't spot him looking at his music once during the evening.

Sorry for any ioncoherent ramblings Simon, I think the point I was trying to make has been covered by you - in terms of horn playing, you will need to be able to read, or stick to playing by ear, there's not really any middle ground is there? But, if you want to tosh out a few songs on the guitar that you are familiar with but don't 'know', then a book with the chord progressions is the one for you.


On the other hand, my situation is that I do play by ear but with some musical knowledge of scales, chord construction and theory etc, so although I am playing by ear a tune laid out as described by mfox (a la Aebersolds etc etc) would not be totally alien to me even though I wasn't following the dots as such, I'd be following the chord progression, therefore I'd have some knowledge of why I was making the note choices I was making.

I think that's cleared that up quite succinctly really. Or not.