Back to basics re setup

[Bobby G]

How can you tell if a new horn you are trying for the first time has been set up properly? There will be some obvious things, like an absence of leaks and a generally consistent and positive feel, but some aspects of setup are a more personal thing and fall within acceptable parameters rather than one exact setting or measurement.

You would think it would be in the interest of the shop to set their horns up, especially on a high-end expensive horn, even if it was only a quick blow and tweak to make sure everything works ok, but this doesn't always seem to be the case. Having said that, sax.co.uk seem to be ok (not that I've ever been there), and the few I've tried at Myatt's in Hitchin were all ok too.

So, is it possible tell if the reason you don't like a particular horn is purely down to whether it's poorly set-up, as opposed to being one that you wouldn't like even if it was working perfectly?

Cheers, Bob

 

[Pete Thomas]

Often very hard to tell. When I take a horn to my local repairer (Stepehen Howard) he sees leaks that I'm not aware of ver often. Often senses them and most of the time is right. If you have the patience to check every pad with a fag paper (all round) you have a good chance to tell. Leak lights miss the smaller leaks.

Look out for excess play in rods and linkage as this can mean intermittent leaking that may not show up all the time. Same with weak springing: there can sometimes be no leaks apparent until you blow down it. This can be quite crucial woith octave keys.

I would agree that if you go somewhere like sax.co.uk or Myatts things should be all OK.

I expect to have any new or secondhand so called mint condition horn to be teaked a bit. A shop might do this if they have an in house repairer not inundated with school flutes and clarinets.

Strangely enough though, fixing a leak doesn't always make a saxophone play better.

Sorry if all this is not as helpful as you were hoping for.

 

[Bobby G]

No, that's quite helpful, and more-or-less what I thought. It's quite clear that very weak spring tension could cause leaks while you were blowing it, but also small leaks can be 'played around'; I've seen it said that Ben Webster actually preferred playing a leaky horn. I was prompted to ask the questions by Linky's description of a new horn being 'buttery', and wondered how much of that feel could have been caused by poor set-up, and how much was due to Linky's dislike of the feel of that particular horn. If you were unsure of the setup of a new horn in a shop, would you go so far as to tweak springs and do the fag-paper test if you basically liked it? Or would the shop frown on that (I guess if you whipped out a spring hook they might not be too happy!)? Or would you just move on and try another horn?

Cheers, Bob

 

[Pete Thomas]

You need to point out anything like that to the shop, if you think there might be a leak than say that before messing around with the horn.

I would always like to have some kind of benchmark playing test. In my case I would make sure I am warmed up and my mouthpiece and reed are such that when I play my saxophone I can confidently get a low Bb subtone, When trying another horn, if I can't get that Bb I know there may be something wrong with it, either a leak or just not the horn to buy.

If you aren't into subtoning that low, you would just need to compare the horn with your own quite frequently, e.g. how quietly you can play certain notes - especially the low notes where leaks may be more apparent.

Also if thre sound of a horn radically changes between two notes (apart from across the register break from C# to D) then you either have a possible leak or dodgy horn. These are things that if you are in a shop that has a knowledgeable friendly assistant you can ask them to test it. Don't be scared of being a beginner (like I am in guitar shops)

 

[Bobby G]

Just a thought; if you were going to a shop to try out various horns, it would be useful to take your own as a reference horn, rather than referring new and unknown (to you, that is) to each other - you would then be able to compare sound, feel etc to something familiar. Also another unknown factor when you are trying new horns could be the acoustics of the room, so again it might be useful to compare new horns to your own.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

Hi Bob. I had spotted few flaws in the workmanship and got the technician to fix a problem with play in the octave mechanism.

I also had my own horn and mouthpiece there as well!

Having your own horn and mouthpiece is a great reference point. Probably the best you can ever do.

I think it would be best to mention it to the shop owners, but I doubt they'll do anything for you there and then unless their repair man is free and it wouldn't take too long. Saxophones obviously come ready set-up from the factory and though they can be tweaked they are a fairly average representative of what they will be like. Horns straight from the factory are normally sprung harder in fact.

Bear in mind a differently spaced horn is going to feel alien to you, the best method is to spend time with them. If you notice something immediately you can be guaranteed that it will be annoying after playing the thing for a while. But if you haven't found something annoying in a few hours of playing I doubt there is going to be anything that will be problematic. Even if there is it will most likely be easier to work around or solve.

 

[griff136]

you can also go to a shop and try 5 saxes of the same make and allset up bu the same person and find 1 that really sticks out as a great playing instrument and one that feels good under the fingers.

go figure!

 

[Linky Lee]

That's so true!

I've looked into various reasons why some things work etc. and other things don't and what things actually have a 'real' effect upon the instrument and it's playing experience.

There are some things like this that I doubt will ever be known. And it will all come down to that most human of things. inconsistency and error.

After all, the humanness is what we want to produce on an instrument, the emotion etc. any robot can play a saxophone perfectly and be programmed to do the notes and be rhythmically correct etc. But no one would ever want to go and see that purely because it's rubbish. It doesn't communicate anything and isn't interesting. Maybe the best horns are the ones that have their quirks, but quirks to suit you.

 

[spike]

some good points here, and another consideration is that a lot of horns stand in the showrooms for quite a while before finding their lucky owners, in that time I imagine that some must get tried out and played quite a lot, which must make a difference to the set up over time.

Twould be interesting to know from Griff's point of view - what are the most common set up problems on new horns coming onto your bench for their first service? Or is there any part of the sax mechanics that is particularly prone to weakness - that needs setting up more often than any other?

gruss - spike

 

[Bobby G]

I would guess the G# which gets biffed about and wet through normal playing is a candidate for most problematic part.

Then again, reading some of Steve Howard's war stories, it's almost unbelievable what can stop a horn from working!

Cheers, Bob