Chord transposition

[eb424]

These are skills that are prerequisites. Transposing isn't a specific prerequisite of that course because the music shown was already transposed.

Sorry I thought the first post explained it...I would assume that the fundementals would relate to chords and i agree that the music on the course is already tansposed..However in relation to me I need to transpose the score which comes with the chords..Ordinarily I don't use the chords as i play the melody. I now need to work on the instrumental parts intro's outros etc and the video above uses the chords re improv...For the formula to work for me I need to transpose the original chords to the new key..simples..

 

[Pete Thomas]

never said I don't want to learn to read music..

Nobody said you said that. It is however very much implied when you say things like What about all the greats that couldn't read.., that phrase is usually mentioned in the context of someone who doesn't want to learn to read music.

I have always said the times not right as i have limited time and enjoy playing.

I do find this funny given that reading music notation actually speeds up the process of learning if you can't yet do it all by ear very quickly (as do the greats who can't read music) and gives you more time to enjoy playing. I mean it with the best of intentions when I say I cannot imagine how much time you have wasted over the years laboriously wring the not names in over the lyrics. If you do the same with chord symbols that waste of time will not only be compounded by a factor of 3 or 4, but it will look a complete mess and impossible to follow. I wouldn't even think about doing a course like that without being able to read music (no need for fast sight reading just basic).

This is why i get fed up here tho tbf..

That is a real shame because it does seems to imply to many people that you don't appreciate all the great advice being given.

Sorry I thought the first post explained it...

No, the first post didn't say anything about expecting the course to include lessons on transposing chords.

 

[eb424]

I've worked with many great musicians that don't read. It is absolutely fine for those who can play at a very high level without being able to read.

I've played with many greats who don't read music. Including some who couldn't see anything, let alone read music. All of these greats had a phenomenal ear and memory. If you have that then don't bother to read music. I much prefer to learn something without music but I started out with a terrible ear - I had to work really hard on ear training. But reading music isn't really music theory IMO.


Why should it include transposition? It is an important skill in many cases, but not necessarily in an improvisation course per se. However if you have the necessary basics to learn impro which include knowing about intervals and how to count, then you can transpose.

I had a brief look at that video and did appear that reading music was necessary, but learning to read music wasn't on there. I think he also advised memorising lyrics and looking up wikipedia to find different versions. But did he include lessons on learning to read English?

These are skills that are prerequisites. Transposing isn't a specific prerequisite of that course because the music shown was already transposed.

The thread was re me not the course..I thought it may be helpful to show th context of why I needed to transpose chords..

I had a brief look at that video and did appear that reading music was necessary, but learning to read music wasn't on there. I think he also advised memorising lyrics and looking up wikipedia to find different versions. But did he include lessons on learning to read English?

this is purely pedantic and the attitude kind of summarises why people like @thomsax feel that theyhave to leave CS..The post combined with the vid surely explain why I asked the question. The facts that I asked and gave an example surely implies I have a basic understanding of it..

I had a brief look at that video and did appear that reading music was necessary, but learning to read music wasn't on there.

Surely at that point anyone wanting to do the course would have to learn if they didn't understand the concept. I understood it but for it to work for me I would have to transpose the chords. I thought I knew how to do it because contrary to popular belief I do look at books etc re music theory, and asked for clarity.

 

[Pete Thomas]

.The post combined with the vid surely explain why I asked the question.

Yes, but I wasn't responding about that so I don't see a need to think the worst of me. I was responding to the bit where you said the course should include how to transpose:

and should in my mind include said transposition..

I merely meant to say that it should no more teach you to transpose than it should teach you to be able to read (whether music or words). It's just an analogy that may explain why it doesn't include certain prerequisites.

That said I don't know know enough about the course to say whether transposition is necessary for the course, only necessary for (maybe a small minority of) people wanting to apply the course to a piece of music that they need to transpose.

People here are trying to help.

 

[eb424]

Nobody said you said that. It is however very much implied when you say things like What about all the greats that couldn't read.., that phrase is usually mentioned in the context of someone who doesn't want to learn to read music.

but you seem to have missed out a great chunk of the paragraph pete that explains what I have been learning...it is well out of context..

"That is a real shame because it does seems to imply to many people that you don't appreciate all the great advice being given"

Is this even tho i state that i use the information and have on several occassions in previous posts said how much I appreciate the time and info given

No, the first post didn't say anything about expecting the course to include lessons on transposing chords.

Again not in context, the rest of the paragraph should explain what I meant.

"I would assume that the fundementals would relate to chords and i agree that the music on the course is already tansposed..However in relation to me I need to transpose the score which comes with the chords..Ordinarily I don't use the chords as i play the melody. I now need to work on the instrumental parts intro's outros etc and the video above uses the chords re improv...For the formula to work for me I need to transpose the original chords to the new key..simples.."

it gets quite difficult when parts of paragraphs are used out of context..Others jump on the "you don't want to learn to read music" bandwagon.

I mean it with the best of intentions when I say I cannot imagine how much time you have wasted over the years laboriously wring the not names in over the lyrics. If you do the same with chord symbols that waste of time will not only be compounded by a factor of 3 or 4, but it will look a complete mess and impossible to follow. I wouldn't even think about doing a course like that without being able to read music (no need for fast sight reading just basic).

Quite neagative tbf..I dont see reading music as negative..I can transpose a 5 page score and write above the lyrics in an hour, because of all the practice..there are benefits, practice reading music, transposing, the new notation is as big as I need it for my dwindling eyesite, 2 pages instead of 5..As I have said before I read music and have a basic understanding of theory I need to have..However in relation to playing I can't use a score, difficult for me to navigate at speed, to many pages for 1 music stand, size of the font..
People seem to assume that I am this person who doesn't want to read music which isn't the case. Playing from scores is different, i don't need to. This is why posts go on at times I really feed the need here to defend myself I shouldn't have to its meant to be fun..







Quote Quote & reply

Report Edit

 

[Pete Effamy]

People seem to assume that I am this person who doesn't want to read music which isn't the case. Playing from scores is different, i don't need to.

But the paradox is that you effectively say that you live in one world and therefore don’t need the stuff from the other world, whilst preceding to ask questions about stuff in the other world..,

 

[Pete Effamy]

As for @thomsax , it seems as though he hasn’t appreciated people debating their own belief in the same way that he himself usually expresses his own.

 

[Pete Effamy]

However in relation to me I need to transpose the score which comes with the chords

This pretty much goes for all of us, having spent our time playing instruments pitched in Bb and Eb.
The other option for you Eddie is to get yourself a C Melody - a sax pitched in C. A few on here have them, so maybe post a thread about that.

 

[eb424]

Yes, but I wasn't responding about that so I don't see a need to think the worst of me. I was responding to the bit where you said the course should include how to transpose:

Not thinking the worst Pete, but if you read the whole thread pete it starts getting a bit personal...I think @thomsax felt the same...quotes arent good it gets messy this thread was wrapped up l;ong ago, but has gone on for 4 pages.. as a pro musician you have learnt the right way as have many on here; I don't have enough years left to learn as much as you know..or the guy and girls on here, but do appreciate the advice and time give but take umbridge that people assume that I don't use it...why would i ask ?.. Regarding transposition I was saying for me that there was a need and asked the provider if it could be included..Most of the chords on the scores will be in the original key which is no good for the sax..if you want to use the process re scores there is a need to transpose and the books that I looked at including yours didn't explain how to do it..so I asked here giving an example of how i thought it would be done..

 

[eb424]

But the paradox is that you effectively say that you live in one world and therefore don’t need the stuff from the other world, whilst preceding to ask questions about stuff in the other world..,

the thing with @thomsax is he listens ( or reads) remembers and replies..Not such the case for all here..There is no "paradox" I don't effectively say anything about worlds. I have constantly said that I read music and am learning theory on my musical journey as required to achieve my goal..I don't play from scores for the reasons given above..My original question included an example of how I thought transpositions of chords would be done, but instead of anyone picking up on that and being positive the forum seems to take a negative approach and tell me what I don't want to learn..

 

[eb424]

This pretty much goes for all of us, having spent our time playing instruments pitched in Bb and Eb.
The other option for you Eddie is to get yourself a C Melody - a sax pitched in C. A few on here have them, so maybe post a thread about that.

or instead I could post a thread on a topic I was looking for answers on..Hmm apparantly not what the CS is about..Who'd have thunk it huh..If there is a need to transpose chords in relation to improv why shouldn't it be in the course

 

[Pete Effamy]

or instead I could post a thread on a topic I was looking for answers on..Hmm apparantly not what the CS is about..Who'd have thunk it huh..If there is a need to transpose chords in relation to improv why shouldn't it be in the course

…and there you go, I was trying to be helpful.

 

[mizmar]

Regarding transposition I was saying for me that there was a need and asked the provider if it could be included

As an aside. The Online Sax Academy "beginning improvisasjon" is in consert and transposed for Eb and Bb; and has arrangement versions with and without note names on the sheets. All round win for you.

But

or instead I could post a thread on a topic I was looking for answers on..Hmm apparantly not what the CS is about..Who'd have thunk it huh..If there is a need to transpose chords in relation to improv why shouldn't it be in the course

All but the 101 courses have some assumptions about skill levels of people starting the course... "Beginner" is ambiguous! If they assume transposition as a prerequisite, you are gonna have to learn it.

However

The one or two things I've downloaded from Jamie (the chap in the OP) have been in concert, Eb and Bb.... Have you actually looked at his support material?

#StormInACaféCup

 

[Pete Thomas]

but if you read the whole thread pete it starts getting a bit personal

I've read the whole thread and everyone (with possibly one exception) has been very polite and trying to help.

I said before threads don't necessarily end when they original post gets their answer. That is one of the beauties of (this) forum - discussions often evolve and flourish and they aren't then necessarily about or owned by the person who started the discussion.

quotes arent good it gets messy this thread was wrapped up l;ong ago,

Quotes are more useful than saying things like "it starts getting a bit personal" but no way to know what you mean without an example. here's one coming up:

If there is a need to transpose chords in relation to improv why shouldn't it be in the course

I already answered that. I made the analogy regarding being able to read is not in the course (whether music or words). I've written many courses and one of the most useful things to do is focus on what the aims and objectives of the course are and avoid wasting time on things that are either prerequisites or not part of what you learn.

but instead of anyone picking up on that and being positive the forum seems to take a negative approach and tell me what I don't want to learn..

Can you give an example of someone "telling you what you don't want to learn?" (and I don't mean means someone giving general advice to whoever may be reading, I mean when did somebody specifically tell you what you don't want to learn?

Do you mean advising you that continuing to write the noteneames instead of using notation may be a slower way to achieve both your immediate goals and ultimate goals?

 

[eb424]

…and there you go, I was trying to be helpful.

I apologise if you were the "and there you go" got my heckles up..

 

[Dr G]

there are benefits, practice reading music, transposing, the new notation is as big as I need it for my dwindling eyesite, 2 pages instead of 5..As I have said before I read music and have a basic understanding of theory I need to have..However in relation to playing I can't use a score, difficult for me to navigate at speed, to many pages for 1 music stand, size of the font..

I, too, have aging eyes, and worked with my optometrist to dial in some glasses that focus at the distance from my eyes to the music stand (~30 inches). Being able to see makes a profound difference.

 

[eb424]

I've read the whole thread and everyone (with possibly one exception) has been very polite and trying to help.

I said before threads don't necessarily end when they original post gets their answer. That is one of the beauties of (this) forum - discussions often evolve and flourish and they aren't then necessarily about or owned by the person who started the discussion.


Quotes are more useful than saying things like "it starts getting a bit personal" but no way to know what you mean without an example. here's one coming up:


I already answered that. I made the analogy regarding being able to read is not in the course (whether music or words). I've written many courses and one of the most useful things to do is focus on what the aims and objectives of the course are and avoid wasting time on things that are either prerequisites or not part of what you learn.

Can you give an example of someone "telling you what you don't want to learn?" (and I don't mean means someone giving general advice to whoever may be reading, I mean when did somebody specifically tell you what you don't want to learn?

Do you mean advising you that continuing to write the noteneames instead of using notation may be a slower way to achieve both your immediate goals and ultimate goals?

I havent vanished gone out will reply when on my laptop..cant use the mobile the same way

 

[eb424]

Learning music has to be rigid. If you skip the fundamentals, nothing else that builds on top of those will ever work. Doesn't matter if it's "just for fun" or a full concert at the Proms. If you want to swim just for fun, you better learn the fundamentals, or you'll die.

Back to your original issue. You already work entirely using the letter names of notes, so you already know how to transpose chords. Chord symbols are exactly the same as letter note names plus a few extra symbols. So if you can transpose the letter C to the letter D, you can transpose the chord Cmin7b5 do Dmin7b5. Same exact transposition. As for the individual chord tones, think in scale degrees. A major chord is 1 3 5, i.e., a C major chord is C (1st note of scale) E (3rd note of scale) G (5th note of scale). So a D major chord would be D F# A. See, you're not transposing every note. You're building the chord in the new key using scale degrees. This one concept will simplify your life immensely.

All of the above builds upon fundamentals:
1) knowing first 7 letters of the alphabet - ABCDEFG
2) knowing intervals- C to D is a whole step, C to C# is a half step, etc.
3) knowing your major scales - notes 1 3 5 of C major are C E G

You probably know 1) and 3). I'm not convinced you're solid on 2) yet, so with that little keyboard you have, try to master that, and you'll have all the tools you need to transpose individual notes and chord symbols.

I know you hate when I do this, but here's a little test of your interval knowledge. Fill in the "?"s below.

Transpose the following up one whole step:

C to ?
B to ?
E to ?
Eb to ?
Bb to ?
C# to ?
G# to ?

i don't I love being put on the spot

C-D
B-C
E -F#
D# -F
Bb-C
C#-D~
G#-Bb

 

[Pete Thomas]

i don't I love being put on the spot

C-D
B-C
E -F#
D# -F
Bb-C
C#-D~
G#-Bb

B - C is up a semitone.

Three other answers are also wrong for reasons I'm sure you will dismiss as pedantic

D# - F should be Eb - F.
C# - D~ er...???
G#-Bb should be Ab - Bb

I know, you think D# is the same as Eb.... But it's very complicated - you tell me how many sharp in the key of D#. See what I mean?

I can't actually tell you without at least 15 seconds of my brain hurting. And the number of sharps in the key of G# takes 19 seconds.

 

[eb424]

It's not about being a fantastic theory based musician, it's about making it easier to get where you want to be. A bit of preparation stops you making and repeating mistakes and gets the job done better and quicker.

I couldn't agree more @Jimmymack...But it seems to be the general consensus here that I don't want to or aren't learning music..I have been playing only 7 years max theres other parts of playing to learn aside from life..it just gets frustrating when people assume that I don't want to learn music I have bought Petes course on chords reference books learnt the keys and associated notes by memory from the circle of fiths, read notation, can navigate a score, transpose and play a bit. I don't know how much further ahead I can be.. sometimes comming on here gets a bit demoralising and I don't think it should.