Chord transposition

[Dr G]

Jimmy, your post reminds me of a friend years ago in New Mexico. He spoke Spanish as his first language, but had never learned to read it. I could pronounce Spanish and “read” the words, but I had not a clue to the meaning of most words. So, when he received correspondence written in Spanish from a friend, he would bring the letter to work to ask me to read it aloud to him.

Notes, scales, arpeggios…. All represent portions of the language (letters, words, phrases, etc.) of music.

 

[eb424]

As I see Ed’s situation, he identifies challenges and looks for an answer. No issue with that. But consider the scenario if he worked with a teacher that was adept at identifying the root causes behind Ed’s challenges, and was able to construct a path forward that Ed could commit to and benefit from. Ed cannot fix what he doesn’t know, and we cannot identify obstacles that we cannot witness.

Kudos to Ed for sustaining the effort, however frustrating it must be.

TBF i think the question originally posted was answered in the next 2 posts.lol..All i can do is ask questions regarding issues i currently face. Did anyone look at the video I was going to do the course but if i cant transpose chords it's not worth it. The trouble i have found with teachers is that the learning is rigid. Im learning as i go and as i need, i feel as tho i know some basic theory never be in you guys league...but no need to be..

 

[Pete Thomas]

The fact that learning the basics actually frees you and speeds up everything else doesn’t register so they spend days, weeks, years rerunning the same simple issues.

That has kind of summed up this thread. Learning the notes of is kind of pointless without the other basic things involved with improvising.

 

[eb424]

Eddie seems to be in the same place as many, many others. They don’t want to spend the time learning the basics because it uses up the time they have to practice things they see as being more important. The fact that learning the basics actually frees you and speeds up everything else doesn’t register so they spend days, weeks, years rerunning the same simple issues.

No not at all @Jimmymack..I have enough to do in life without learning what i don't need to know..Ive highlighted before why i do it my way, it meets my needs...I don't need to be a fantastic theory based musician to play in pubs or clubs...its just fun for some of us lol..if my needs change ill adjust my learning, i read notes and scores everytime i transpose, just dont play from them..

 

[eb424]

That has kind of summed up this thread. Learning the notes of is kind of pointless without the other basic things involved with improvising.

Is there a difference beween definitions of improvisation..all im looking to do is play a few notes to the backing tracks instrumental parts intros and outros..did anyone consider the fact that the course assiciated to the video will do that. However it doesnt include transposing chords..which i need to do hense the simple to answer original question. Threads gone way of track, Ive said i want to learn more about chords, implied by the video and asked a question that was answered in posts 2 and 3..

 

[lydian]

TBF i think the question originally posted was answered in the next 2 posts.lol..All i can do is ask questions regarding issues i currently face. Did anyone look at the video I was going to do the course but if i cant transpose chords it's not worth it. The trouble i have found with teachers is that the learning is rigid. Im learning as i go and as i need, i feel as tho i know some basic theory never be in you guys league...but no need to be..

Learning music has to be rigid. If you skip the fundamentals, nothing else that builds on top of those will ever work. Doesn't matter if it's "just for fun" or a full concert at the Proms. If you want to swim just for fun, you better learn the fundamentals, or you'll die.

Back to your original issue. You already work entirely using the letter names of notes, so you already know how to transpose chords. Chord symbols are exactly the same as letter note names plus a few extra symbols. So if you can transpose the letter C to the letter D, you can transpose the chord Cmin7b5 do Dmin7b5. Same exact transposition. As for the individual chord tones, think in scale degrees. A major chord is 1 3 5, i.e., a C major chord is C (1st note of scale) E (3rd note of scale) G (5th note of scale). So a D major chord would be D F# A. See, you're not transposing every note. You're building the chord in the new key using scale degrees. This one concept will simplify your life immensely.

All of the above builds upon fundamentals:
1) knowing first 7 letters of the alphabet - ABCDEFG
2) knowing intervals- C to D is a whole step, C to C# is a half step, etc.
3) knowing your major scales - notes 1 3 5 of C major are C E G

You probably know 1) and 3). I'm not convinced you're solid on 2) yet, so with that little keyboard you have, try to master that, and you'll have all the tools you need to transpose individual notes and chord symbols.

I know you hate when I do this, but here's a little test of your interval knowledge. Fill in the "?"s below.

Transpose the following up one whole step:

C to ?
B to ?
E to ?
Eb to ?
Bb to ?
C# to ?
G# to ?

 

[eb424]

No such consequences in music as in your swimming anology tbf. What about all the greats that couldn't read..ok a few of the dead but not from drowning..Does no one here give me any credit..what do you think i do with the advice ? Ignore it..Ive learn't scales, can use the circle of fiths re keys and notes eithin the key by memory, i can read dots, note names and duration re rhythm..I am learning the basics but in none of my books re chords does it say how to transpose otherwise i wouldnt have asked. Its probably a silly question to you but was one i needed to confirm to decide whether to do the course.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is there a difference beween definitions of improvisation..

Yes there are loads of different types of improvisation and so different definitions.

Threads gone way of track, Ive said i want to learn more about chords, implied by the video and asked a question that was answered in posts 2 and 3.

That’s the way it goes, very often associated topics crop up and the thread grows into something way beyond a simple answer to the OP so a lot more people can benefit from an organically growing discussion.

 

[eb424]

Yes there are loads of different types of improvisation and so different definitions.

That’s the way it goes, very often associated topics crop up and the thread grows into something way beyond a simple answer to the OP so a lot more people can benefit from an organically growing discussion.

They're only going to learn what I am and am not doing tbf

 

[Targa]

Learning music has to be rigid. If you skip the fundamentals, nothing else that builds on top of those will ever work. Doesn't matter if it's "just for fun" or a full concert at the Proms. If you want to swim just for fun, you better learn the fundamentals, or you'll die.

That brought to mind Joseph Knecht knew a fair bit about music theory and died of drowning.

 

[lydian]

That brought to mind Joseph Knecht knew a fair bit about music theory and died of drowning.

Likewise, Esther Williams died trying to circular breathe under water.

 

[Jimmymack]

No not at all @Jimmymack..I have enough to do in life without learning what i don't need to know..Ive highlighted before why i do it my way, it meets my needs...I don't need to be a fantastic theory based musician to play in pubs or clubs...its just fun for some of us lol..if my needs change ill adjust my learning, i read notes and scores everytime i transpose, just dont play from them..

It's not about being a fantastic theory based musician, it's about making it easier to get where you want to be. A bit of preparation stops you making and repeating mistakes and gets the job done better and quicker.

 

[thomsax]

Lots of good and clever guys here on CS. Too clever for me. But if you are so good why are you not out and spreading good music around instead of hanging on a saxophone forum?

Time to check out from Cafe Saxophone.

 

[mizmar]

He asked questions because he had something to solve. But I'm afraid we didn't manage

TBF i think the question originally posted was answered in the next 2 posts.lol.

@thomsax please don't. The chit chat in threads like this is all friendly with good intent. Maybe a little over zealous...

 

[eb424]

Lots of good and clever guys here on CS. Too clever for me. But if you are so good why are you not out and spreading good music around instead of hanging on a saxophone forum?

Time to check out from Cafe Saxophone.

Don't do that im sure it's all meant in the best possible taste..I always think it's a place to ask questions sometimes it is as tho it turns into something else, but thats justcthe cafe i think..

 

[Pete Thomas]

That’s the way it goes, very often associated topics crop up and the thread grows into something way beyond a simple answer to the OP so a lot more people can benefit from an organically growing discussion.

They're only going to learn what I am and am not doing tbf

I disagree because the thread started off about whether or not chords need to be transposed if a tune is transposed. That was answered fairly comprehensively very soon. Also that impro was a target. And so then the discussion went on to include some very helpful advice.

I don't replay think people who haven't read your other threads would know what you are and aren't doing except what you state very briefly - ie using an improvisation instruction video which requires you to have (and understand) the chord symbols for the song you are playing to backing tracks. The question about whether you need to transpose the chords (and assumption that it might be more complex than just transposing the same as with the melody) was a fair indication that you aren't quite at the stage where you understand what chord symbols are for. That is absolutely fair enough.

But the thread then continued further with some very helpful general advice for beginner improvisors in either jazz or pop genres. The suggestions that some very basic music theory was necessary seemed to have become misinterpreted to imply that some extremely complex theory was necessary.

This kind of nicely summarises the misunderstanding:

I don't need to be a fantastic theory based musician to play in pubs or clubs...

It's not about being a fantastic theory based musician, it's about making it easier to get where you want to be.

This is exactly what people are advising for anyone wanting to learn improvising - that there is no shortcut to doing it (in the genre shown in the video) without knowing the basics unless you are one of a very few near-geniuses who can do it intuitively without formally knowing these basics.

Before anyone says "what about blues then?" I don't include that in the style of improvising shown in the video. It has its own special type of music theory much of which can be intuitive and less necessary to learn formally - but has it's own limitations in that regard unless you do intuitively have a feel for the blues. I've worked with some great blues players, some of whom knew the theory some just felt it. But that may be a bit of a digression however relevant)

Anyone who has a big innate built in aptitude to improvise will be able to just play at a reasonably high level without understanding such things as cadences, passing notes, major 3rd vs minor 3rd intervals, or leading notes.

But most people can't. Those things have to be understood initially. But there is no need for more complex stuff like tritone substitutes, upper extensions and alterations or modal interchange.

Many people have a big fear that it's complicated, and certainly very advanced levels of music theory are, but nobody is suggesting that kind of complexity (ie fantastic theory based musician) here.

 

[Pete Effamy]

What about all the greats that couldn't read

This can’t be used as your own validation for not learning to read. Their own path of learning has not been accessible for you, and certainly many of us outside the US - (living amongst other greats and learning directly).

 

[eb424]

Thats fair enough @Pete Thomas..The video is just an extract from an in depth course that covers chords..I kind of knew that chords would have to be transposed as is the score I thought i knew how but ubless i can do it it isn't worth ubdertaking the course which doesn't and should in my mind include said transposition..

 

[eb424]

This can’t be used as your own validation for not learning to read. Their own path of learning has not been accessible for you, and certainly many of us outside the US - (living amongst other greats and learning directly).

This is why i get fed up here tho tbf..I have ( as far as i can remember) never said I don't want to learn to read music..I have always said the times not right as i have limited time and enjoy playing. I have to read scores to transpose, i do it myself not from a chart. This has introduced me to the circle of fiths, key sigs, chords, intervals, note names and timming etc. I am learning on a need to know basis which had bought me to improv and chords. I now need to learn the fundementals of this..

 

[Pete Thomas]

What about all the greats that couldn't read

This can’t be used as your own validation for not learning to read.

I've worked with many great musicians that don't read. It is absolutely fine for those who can play at a very high level without being able to read.

I've played with many greats who don't read music. Including some who couldn't see anything, let alone read music. All of these greats had a phenomenal ear and memory. If you have that then don't bother to read music. I much prefer to learn something without music but I started out with a terrible ear - I had to work really hard on ear training. But reading music isn't really music theory IMO.

it it isn't worth ubdertaking the course which doesn't and should in my mind include said transposition..

Why should it include transposition? It is an important skill in many cases, but not necessarily in an improvisation course per se. However if you have the necessary basics to learn impro which include knowing about intervals and how to count, then you can transpose.

I had a brief look at that video and did appear that reading music was necessary, but learning to read music wasn't on there. I think he also advised memorising lyrics and looking up wikipedia to find different versions. But did he include lessons on learning to read English?

These are skills that are prerequisites. Transposing isn't a specific prerequisite of that course because the music shown was already transposed.