Truetone Soprano Restoration

[turf3]

No G# trill on my Holton C soprano. Of course it has forked Eb. Round pearl G# button. Teeny little palm keys very close to the body, but on individual sets of posts like modern palm keys. No front high F, though Holton Bb sopranos often have these.

Don't go trusting my judgement on intonation, I'm just reporting what I found myself.

 

[jbtsax]

These are the soprano mouthpieces I have at the present time. From left to right: Selmer scroll shank,
Conn "Eagle", name not visible, short mp that came with Buescher soprano.

The Selmer has the smallest opening before the chamber. The other 3 have similar larger round openings that go right into the chamber without a "step". The short mouthpiece is the only one I can get up to pitch but the upper octave A and above are nearly impossible to play due to the amount of "resistance". The third photo shows how far the end of the sax goes into the chamber which I'm thinking might be part of the problem. I am not too concerned about finding the "right" mouthpiece since I am planning to sell the soprano, but I would like it to play well enough to adjust the key heights for intonation. I may send the short one that came with it to Mojo Bari to see if he can make it work.

 

[jbtsax]

Here are a few more photos of the assembled sax. There is still a bit of touch up brush plating that needs to be done along with cleaning a few of the white roo pads using a white art eraser.

 

[jbtsax]

This was the replacement case I bought for it, which looking back should have given me a clue that it wasn't a Bb soprano.

If anyone is thinking about repadding a sax with white roo pads, this is what you can look forward to. They do clean up nicely using a white soft art eraser---a tip I picked up from Curt Altarac. I suppose they could be sprayed with some type of clear covering to keep them looking clean, but that might reverse the advantage that they "don't stick" (under most conditions).

 

[Jeanette]

Looks lovely, nice job

Jx

 

[GCinCT]

It's gorgeous! Thanks for sharing with us.

 

[PigSquealer]

This was the replacement case I bought for it, which looking back should have given me a clue that it wasn't a Bb soprano.

View attachment 20262

If anyone is thinking about repadding a sax with white roo pads, this is what you can look forward to. They do clean up nicely using a white soft art eraser---a tip I picked up from Curt Altarac. I suppose they could be sprayed with some type of clear covering to keep them looking clean, but that might reverse the advantage that they "don't stick" (under most conditions).

View attachment 20263

Seeing your project really makes me want to get on the one I have. Yours looks fantastic! Although I’m thinking of black pads. Ugh, I don’t need anything else to clean. That’s funny on the case. Are you sure it’s not a doublers case ? Looks like enough space to double on ocarina or kazoo, maybe harmonica.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Yes, there is a big difference, the Bb MPC will not play on the c-sop. Just look at the difference in length.

I have the c-sop that Stephen Howard reviewed here. I can't say I notice a great deal of difference between the 2 mouthpieces supplied with it and the Brancher Bb mouthpiece that I prefer to use with it. Of course, this is a modern sop and it's possible that vintage ones would react differently.

 

[LostCircuits]

I have the c-sop that Stephen Howard reviewed here. I can't say I notice a great deal of difference between the 2 mouthpieces supplied with it and the Brancher Bb mouthpiece that I prefer to use with it. Of course, this is a modern sop and it's possible that vintage ones would react differently.

Like I said, there is a difference between "play" and "play in tune". It may come down to the individual instrument and mouthpiece but I can tell you that with a really good MPC, there is a world of a difference. Arguably, the one I play on my Buescher does play really nice because that's what I made it for, whereas the Morgan c-sop MPC I had before may be a great MPC but doesn't really like the Buescher. And maybe somewhere in my drawers is a Bb soprano MPC that works better than the Morgan. It's kind of endless except that I personally have reached my (happy) ending.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Like I said, there is a difference between "play" and "play in tune".

Indeed, but I'm only interested in the latter.

 

[thomsax]

All C sopranos have differnt pitch characteristics. On mine middle C (third space C), C# and A were a bit flat - pushing in the side Bb key, Bb and side C key and G# helps a bit. I couldn't hear any differences between the Buescher original C soprano mouthpiece and a old Bb soprano mouthpiece. I was encouraged to experiment, which I also did. Bb soprano reeds worked on both C and Bb mouthpices. But I narrowed the reeds down a bit. I had to push the mouthpiece far down on the cork so just ¼ or less was left showing.

My C-soprano was keyed to high E, botton G# and bare brass. Buescher made around 500 C-sopranos. I think the last ones were keyed to high F? It was fun to play C- soprano but it was not my thing. I sold my C-soprano and C-tenor for c a year ago.

 

[EdJ]

If you were looking for a better fitting case then one for a removable neck Bb soprano is the right length but very slightly too wide and the spaces for the sticking out pinky keys is not aligned. With something wrapped around it the C sop it should be OK. It worked for me with a Bauhaus Walstein Chinese model removable neck case and a Conn C sop.

Also Hercules trumpet pegs with the bell rest cone taken all the way to the bottom works well for a stand.

 

[LostCircuits]

All C sopranos have differnt pitch characteristics. On mine middle C (third space C), C# and A were a bit flat - pushing in the side Bb key, Bb and side C key and G# helps a bit. I couldn't hear any differences between the Buescher original C soprano mouthpiece and a old Bb soprano mouthpiece. I was encouraged to experiment, which I also did. Bb soprano reeds worked on both C and Bb mouthpices. But I narrowed the reeds down a bit. I had to push the mouthpiece far down on the cork so just ¼ or less was left showing.

My C-soprano was keyed to high E, botton G# and bare brass. Buescher made around 500 C-sopranos. I think the last ones were keyed to high F? It was fun to play C- soprano but it was not my thing. I sold my C-soprano and C-tenor for c a year ago.

I have never seen a vintage c-sop keyed to F, IIRC, the F keying was introduced around 1927 on Buescher sopranos and I don't know if they ever made it into their c-sops. It would be very cool to see one (have one)

 

[turf3]

I have never seen a vintage c-sop keyed to F, IIRC, the F keying was introduced around 1927 on Buescher sopranos and I don't know if they ever made it into their c-sops. It would be very cool to see one (have one)

My Holton C is keyed to high F (no front F, unfortunately, unlike many Holton Bb sopranos). It's my understanding (but it's just internet scuttlebutt) that there were a VERY FEW Buescher Cs made to high F.

 

[thomsax]

I have never seen a vintage c-sop keyed to F, IIRC, the F keying was introduced around 1927 on Buescher sopranos and I don't know if they ever made it into their c-sops. It would be very cool to see one (have one)

I don't know if Buescher C sopranos were keyed to high F?? They made around 500 according to Vincent Bach International and I guess the popularity fadded out and the model vannished around 1929. I often wonder how did they make C-soprnanos. Buescher had the pull-up tonehole machine (like Conn) but did they make a serie of 500 C-sopranos at the same time or was it spread out over the years? To make just a few C-sopranos keyed to hey F would probably be with high costs.

 

[Yansalis]

Funny this came up now, these have been on my mind of late, I have been studying them. Great project.

 

[jbtsax]

I currently am having Keith Bradbury (Mojo Bari) refinish one of my mouthpieces to the specs of one of his that plays well.
A special thanks to @LostCircuits for sending me 4 of his C soprano mouthpieces to try, and @helen for the excellent information on her blog and website about a Conn C soprano she owns. She included a list of key heights for the Conn that made her soprano play its best that I am trying on the Buescher. I will report back when I have gotten the mp back from Mojo.

My first impression on the mouthpieces I have tried so far is that the pitch is very flexible, in other words the notes don't "slot" very well in the vernacular of brass players. My study of acoustics tells me that this indicates a degree of "inharmonicity" meaning the frequencies of the harmonics are not exactly whole number multiples of the frequency of the fundamental. I know some players prefer vintage instruments because their pitch flexibility allows them to do scoops and falls in their preferred style of music. I like this to a degree as well, but a little bit goes a long way.

 

[turf3]

I have a gut feel that "slottedness" has something to do with the bore size as well. I don't mean the minor differences between say a Selmer and a Conn, but more the differences between a C soprano and an oboe. The truth is that above the middle of a C soprano there just isn't very much bore THERE to drive pitch. I also suspect that the mouthpiece and reed of a C soprano are proportionally much larger than of a tenor, for example, so the influence of those elements is greater. Of course your own mouth is proportionally much larger on a C soprano than it is on a tenor, so again the influence of voicing and embouchure adjustments is going to be much greater on the little guy.

I have never played a sopranino, but it might be interesting to hear someone who's put some time on both nino and C soprano comment on whether the nino is even more squirrelly than the C soprano.

 

[lydian]

FWIW, a Bb Yamaha 4C works very well for my bandmate’s C soprano. She has no major intonation issues that I can hear, and the tone is nice and full, not oboe-like. The Yamaha also has a short shank, so you can push it in as far as you need.

 

[vries1]

This was the replacement case I bought for it, which looking back should have given me a clue that it wasn't a Bb soprano.

View attachment 20262

If anyone is thinking about repadding a sax with white roo pads, this is what you can look forward to. They do clean up nicely using a white soft art eraser---a tip I picked up from Curt Altarac. I suppose they could be sprayed with some type of clear covering to keep them looking clean, but that might reverse the advantage that they "don't stick" (under most conditions).

View attachment 20263

Very nice! The other clue regarding this horn being a C soprano is the distance between the RH C (pinky) key and the cup that it lifts. On a C soprano (like this one), the distance is very very small.