Beginner Transposing

[eb424]

Ok... so apologies to those thinking "cripes here he goes again...".... I was trying to transpose " Always a woman to me" by Billy Joel...from piano, guitar score..i.e concert pitch insstrument.The sheet music was in eb major so using my chart that goes up 2 semitones ( is a semi tone a half step) so f major...am i right in thinking that f major is the key and therefore the notes in f major ( the scale) should be the only notes ( bar accidentals) in the song? Also do you base the steps on the whole chromatic scale or the intervals used in the transposed scale. The notes in F major are FGABb CDE do you simply transpose all As to Bs and then use the key sig and flatten all Bs unless accidentals . Its just that i seem to remenber that 2 sharps are added but there is only one flat..

 

[Greg Strange]

Firstly Eddie I take my hat off to you to your perseverance for the saxophone, and secondly you are correct, I have transcription of "She's Always A Woman by Billy Joel" in the book "The Best Fake Book Ever " published by Hal Leonard (B-flat 2nd edition) on page 626 and it is in the key of F, starts off in 12/8 time. goes to 9/8 and ends up in 6/8 time (maybe Billy was having a Frank Zappa moment) - timing is all triplets - does not appear to have any accidentals...listen to the album I think it's on the "The Stranger" ablum produced by Phil Ramone from 1977 if I recall correctly - another guy called Phil plays an osome ("o" for awesome, anybody!?) alto solo on another track...

 

[eb424]

Firstly Eddie I take my hat off to you to your perseverance for the saxophone, and secondly you are correct, I have transcription of "She's Always A Woman by Billy Joel" in the book "The Best Fake Book Ever " published by Hal Leonard (B-flat 2nd edition) on page 626 and it is in the key of F, starts off in 12/8 time. goes to 9/8 and ends up in 6/8 time (maybe Billy was having a Frank Zappa moment) - timing is all triplets - does not appear to have any accidentals...listen to the album I think it's on the "The Stranger" ablum produced by Phil Ramone from 1977 if I recall correctly - another guy called Phil plays an osome ("o" for awesome, anybody!?) alto solo on another track...

Thanks @Greg Strange persistent I most certainly am...LOL... I do love it...Now a bit gutted TBF bought the sheet music on music notes bought the hal leonard book on amazon....

 

[Greg Strange]

Love of the saxophone is the most important thing about this forum - this is the thing that binds us internationally... educationally, whether self taught or other wise we're all here all here to help - buy real / fake books, learn to play by ear, listen to lots of music - even music you are not familiar with or do not initially like - it might open up a whole new world... ...best of luck...


Greg S.

 

[mizmar]

Just as a test of my own understanding.

Isn't this:

12/8 time. goes to 9/8 and ends up in 6/8 time

timing is all triplets

compound time(s)?

 

[nigeld]

Ok... so apologies to those thinking "cripes here he goes again...".... I was trying to transpose " Always a woman to me" by Billy Joel...from piano, guitar score..i.e concert pitch insstrument.The sheet music was in eb major so using my chart that goes up 2 semitones ( is a semi tone a half step) so f major...am i right in thinking that f major is the key and therefore the notes in f major ( the scale) should be the only notes ( bar accidentals) in the song? Also do you base the steps on the whole chromatic scale or the intervals used in the transposed scale. The notes in F major are FGABb CDE do you simply transpose all As to Bs and then use the key sig and flatten all Bs unless accidentals . Its just that i seem to remenber that 2 sharps are added but there is only one flat..

If there are no accidentals then you can just write out the tune one step higher on the stave without thinking about the intervals. So C, D, E(flat), F becomes D, E (natural) F, G. Changing the key signature makes it all work properly.

Eb major has three flats and F has one, so two flats have been removed, which is the same as adding two sharps.

 

[eb424]

If there are no accidentals then you can just write out the tune one step higher on the stave without thinking about the intervls. So C, D, E(flat), F becomes D, E (natural) F, G. Changing the key signature makes it all work properly.

Eb major has three flats and F has one, so two flats have been removed, which is the same as adding two sharps.

how would you add the two #s tho...so if taking it up 1 whole step...Eb has 3 flats Eb Bb and Ab Eb would become F - Bb becomes C and Eb becomes F...I think that this is wrong because it is 1.5 steps but how can you take a flat or sharp up 1 whole step when there is no corresponding flat or sharp available...I.E In my head (a very strange place indeed...I know) and using the chromatic scale
D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C and C#.

1 whole step up from a Bb would be a Cb....is it not half a step from a sharp or flat and a full step from one natural to another or am I getting tones and steps confused i.e.

SSTSSSSSSTS hmm thought there were 12 tones in an octave??????.....Arghhhhhhhh...LOL

 

[Jeanette]

1 whole step up from a Bb would be a Cb....is it not half a step from a sharp or flat and a full step from one natural to another or am I getting tones and steps confused i.e.

It's a half step from Bb to B and another half from B to C

Jx

 

[Colin the Bear]

C to B and E to F are a half step. Semitone.
Bb to C is a whole step or a tone
Cb is another name for B.

The major scale is... tone tone semitone...tone...tone tone semitone.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Removing two flats or adding two sharps refers to the key signature.

 

[spike]

Eddie your posts have me laughing and crying simultaneously.
Have a look at a piano keyboard.
There are two sets of black notes one has two black notes and the other one has three.
the third one up in the set of three is Bb
What is the name of the white note that is two semi tones up from Bb ?

If you haven't got a keyboard I'm sure it would help you an awful lot if you got hold of one. You don't have to be able to play. It's simply such a useful instrument to have. For me it's another weapon in my toolbox, I use it when transcribing and transposing, for working out chord sequences for melodies and solos and even composing my own little tunes.

The big benefit for me is that I can see all notes laid out on the keyboard. When a sharp becomes a flat or a note changes its name it doesn't jump up and go anywhere it stays where it is and the relation between its neighbours remains the same. In fact its the visual aspect that helps me understand how music works far better than any books and theories.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Virtual piano – Play piano online | Musicca

Virtual piano for music teachers and students. Visualize notes, intervals, chords, scales, and play the piano using your computer keyboard.

www.musicca.com

 

[Pete Thomas]

Its just that i seem to remenber that 2 sharps are added but there is only one flat..

how would you add the two #s tho

Wherever you got that from is only half right. It should be either add two sharps or remove two flats. (But there is one excpetion to this see below)

If a key signature has no sharps or flats (as in C major) OR if it has one or more sharps, then indeed you add two sharps to go up a whole tone.

However if the key signature has two or more flats, you don't add sharps you just remove two flats (which has the same effect)

BUT: When there is one flat only (as in F major) then you effectively get the same result by removing the one and only falt and adding a signgle soap. So F becomes G.

Removing two flats or adding two sharps refers to the key signature.

Indeed it does.

 

[eb424]

It's a half step from Bb to B and another half from B to C

Jx

Thanks @Jeanette sooo if in Eb with the erm 3 flats ....one whole step from Eb Bb and Ab is Fb, Cb and B# respectively but none of these are notes ??? i.e from Eb to E is half a step you cant take another 1/2 step to E# Bb is half a step to B and another half would be B# again it cant be...I know I am missing something...for the purpose of transposing do you just include the letters so... e is just e not Eb and just becomes F...

 

[eb424]

Virtual piano – Play piano online | Musicca

Virtual piano for music teachers and students. Visualize notes, intervals, chords, scales, and play the piano using your computer keyboard.

www.musicca.com

Thanks again @Colin the Bear got a bit of a grip on the keyboard and intervals but trying to work out what to do with key sigs...AAArgh its endless..LOL

 

[mizmar]

its endless

It's not. there are only four steps.
1/ forget about the existing key signature (Eb)
2/ put in the new key signature (F)
3/ shift each note 2 semitones up.
4/ play the tune.

alternatively

1/ Play the tune from the Hal Leonard book
2/ clear out a hour of your time
3/ put the Hal Leonard and Sheet Music side by side.
4/ work out what is gong on.

 

[Colin the Bear]

E# is another name for F
Fb is another name for E

 

[Colin the Bear]

All 12 notes of the scale have three names.
In the beginning we only use one.
For key signatures like 7# or 7b we need to use their other names.

 

[Colin the Bear]

C can be B# or Dbb

 

[eb424]

It's not. there are only four steps.
1/ forget about the existing key signature (Eb)
2/ put in the new key signature (F)
3/ shift each note 2 semitones up.
4/ play the tune.

Nice and simple (like me...) thanks @mizmar...so for clarity...

1/ forget about the existing key signature (Eb) all notes are just notes intervals on the chromatic scale is the same...Eb is just E Bb just B ETC...
2. Transpose (without sharps or flats)
3. Put in the new key signature (F) (sooo 1xs flat Bb) so all transposed from EB As now become Bs with key sig any Bs (unless accidentals) now become Bbs...
4. Have can of beer to celebrate a job well done...
5. Play song on my new saxophone with new mouthpiece because the other one didn't play right....