Saxophones Noblet Alto - Couldn't resist for the price, but a ton of work...

[DavidUK]

I'd already earmarked my Beaugnier tenor (See: Saxophones - But... I couldn't resist this... ) as a prototype for my new pad system so when I spotted this alto my brain triggered with "Oh...it'll make up a pair of Beaugniers" and off I trotted this morning, hoping the pads were shot.

Indeed they are...

...but then so is the finish in the main. Looks like someone has objected to scrappy nickel (?) plate key work and thought it wise to take it back to bare brass - with a rotary wire brush perhaps? You can see a bit of this in the photo above.

It has the same selectable G# articulation lever Steve Howard features in his Beaugnier Vito review Noblet (Beaugnier) Vito alto saxophone review and the same bolted bottom bow.

It doesn't suffer with the levered r/h bell keys in that review as it retains the older style l/h bell keys mounted directly onto the key rods.

 

[DavidUK]

So, what to do with it? Well it can still be a recipient for my pads but do I spend hours smoothing off all the sanding marks, cleaning all the dried on polish, to produce a smooth but patchy finish? Or... do I give it a modern twist by having it wet soda blasted as per the Yamaha 21...

Sacrilege? Well the seller had intended to make a lamp out of it so surely anything which keeps it playing is better that that!

It would cost more that the 21 to soda blast as all the keys would need blasting too.

The other finish I've not yet tried on a horn is ceramic bead tumbling. The part (or parts) is put into a large vat full of ceramic beads (or other media) and left to vibrate and tumble away for hours. The chap who blasted the 21 also tumbled my Strand theatre light (disassembled) to give this finish...

The only trouble with this is that, as opposed to the wet soda blasting which appears to have given an anti-tarnish finish to the 21 (time will tell) I think tumbling will give a finish which ages. So it may well get rid of the sanding marks back to a soft smooth finish and, over time, the bare brass patina will return afresh.

I'm not going to start this project right away. There are many horns ahead of it. So I'll give it some thought for the future...

 

[greenstripe]

With tumbling, wouldn't there be a risk to damage and or erosion to the edges of tone holes?

 

[DavidUK]

If the body was tumbled on its own I think it would be OK. The beads are around 6mm or 1/4" diameter and cushion the parts as they tumble. The tone hole edges would need to be inspected but I reckon they'd just need a light dressing afterwards.

The neck tenon and receiver would need to be protected.

 

[lydian]

Looks like it would make a great lamp.

 

[DavidUK]

Looks like it would make a great lamp.

I'll have a go at saving it... I have a reputation for doing so. But it needs to be economical to repair as I'm not expecting a "great" horn at the end of it. Any kind of special finish will add to the bill so I may well just use free elbow grease.

 

[lydian]

I realize Noblet has some fans, but the few I've played were not great horns (poor intonation, flimsy construction (i.e. bell/body brace), sloppy tolerances). I admit the tone was nice, but no better than similar makes of the same vintage. Not worth the time, expense or effort. But that's just my opinion as a player. Maybe their are other things I've missed that make these desirable, like the unusual mechanics. As a player, I'd have zero interest in such a horn.

As far as yours being nickel, I thought silver turned black but nickel turned cloudy grey when it tarnished. Why do you think it's nickel?

 

[DavidUK]

I read the keys on these were nickel. There's hardly any plating left, all sanded off bar some remnants on the guards. Unlikely to be silver I think.

 

[lydian]

Nickel keys make perfect sense. I've just never seen nickel turn black. Usually just gets dull and cloudy. I had a Noblet sax from the 60s, and it just turned a dull grey. Yours looks like it was in a fire or shipwreck or something, no offense.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I realize Noblet has some fans, but the few I've played were not great horns (poor intonation, flimsy construction (i.e. bell/body brace), sloppy tolerances). I admit the tone was nice, but no better than similar makes of the same vintage. Not worth the time, expense or effort. But that's just my opinion as a player. Maybe their are other things I've missed that make these desirable, like the unusual mechanics. As a player, I'd have zero interest in such a horn.

I think that's a fair assessment. *Noblet had a reputation for making 'esoteric' horns - but the bottom line is always going to be "That's nice...but how does it play?"
In terms of design they've always been daring, but when push comes to shove a half decent Martin or a Buescher will walk all over them. As will even an old Hawkes & Son XX Century.

*Leblanc

 

[DavidUK]

I'll see how it goes once I get around to it.
I'll maybe throw a ton at it...

...it will sit better on the wall flattened.

 

[JayeNM]

I think that's a fair assessment. *Noblet had a reputation for making 'esoteric' horns - but the bottom line is always going to be "That's nice...but how does it play?"
In terms of design they've always been daring, but when push comes to shove a half decent Martin or a Buescher will walk all over them. As will even an old Hawkes & Son XX Century.

*Leblanc

Having refurbed well over 70 Noblets (particularly Noblets, not other Beaugnier-made horns, which would add another 50 at least) , I'll respectfully disagree with that.

Once put into good tack, and this means correcting key play, etc...they are as good as any vintage American horn as far as performance goes.

Intonation, once keyheights set, has never struck me as problematic. Ergos are fine, tone is sweet, blowing response is good.

I will agree with this:

the consistency of build of them...apparently could vary. Some I have had showed some lack of precision in the fabrication which could not be explained by usual wear and tear....others were quite nice and tight in that category.

THIS one....labor of love. It's been disfigured.

Personally....I'd do whatever is easier as far as finish resurrection. If it's quicker to blast it, blast it. If it's quicker to abrade off the remaining finish, do that, then take a buffing wheel to it to bring back some lustre and polish it up.

I don't like bare brass finishes at all...you are handing off a horn to someone where upkeep will be problematic....but in this instance, the only other alternative would be if you wanna experiment with a faux antique finish or something...which also takes some research as many products cannot withstand repeated contact and start looking bad, fast.

 

[lydian]

Intonation, once keyheights set, has never struck me as problematic. Ergos are fine, tone is sweet, blowing response is good.

My Noblet bass was at least a half step flat on the top end and in the middle. It was impossible for me to lip it into tune. Opening the keys up made little difference. I had to learn alternate fingerings. Ergos were also terrible. Right thumb hook was so low I couldn't use it. Palm keys were impossibly high. I was constantly opening them accidentally. I'm a big guy, but these must have been designed for a giant.

Before you say it was me or my mouthpiece, I tried many bass mouthpieces which play perfectly in tune on other short wraps. Similarly, the ergos on those other basses were excellent.

On the positive side, the Noblet had a very nice tone.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Having refurbed well over 70 Noblets (particularly Noblets, not other Beaugnier-made horns, which would add another 50 at least) , I'll respectfully disagree with that.

Impressive, I'm sure - but if it's all the same with you I'll stick to quality over quantity any day of the week.

 

[DavidUK]

@JayeNM - I recall the Beaugnier Special Perfect alto as being one of a bunch of "iconic" sleeper horns. How does it differ from the Nobler here in your experience?

I mentioned the wet soda blasted 21 looked as though it won't tarnish. I have a scrap tenor with this finish on part of it, as a test before doing the Yamaha. I might brush some vinegar over the row of various finishes on it and see what happens.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I mentioned the wet soda blasted 21 looked as though it won't tarnish. I have a scrap tenor with this finish on part of it, as a test before doing the Yamaha. I might brush some vinegar over the row of various finishes on it and see what happens.

A bare brass finish is always going to tarnish eventually, but I doubt that splashing vinegar over it will give you any real-world results.
A better test would be to use condensation from the bore of a horn and a bit of good old-fashioned gob. Add in some handling with sweaty hands. This should give you a more accurate picture of how the horn stands up to normal use. It won't be a quick test though.

 

[greenstripe]

Also bearing in mind: people will have different amounts of reactive or corrosive agents in their saliva, sweat and skin oils from eachother -this can be to quite a marked degree.

You might be one of the people that excretes a very low amount of these.

 

[DavidUK]

I recall @jbtsax doing some overnight tarnish tests on keys using some kind of liquid?
I'll see if I can find the thread...

...it may have been this one: Love this finish - how was it done?

 

[peterpick]

i hate to disagree with mr howard, but i do. noblet saxes i have had (all made by beaugnier) have been good to excellent. i have a 'special perfect' by beaugnier and it's very good. i had a 'face' tenor by beaugnier from noblet and it was as good as any slightly not top notch sax i've had - say hohner president, dolnet bel-aire/royal jazz, couesnon monopole conservatoire etc.. it's not like a mk VI or an SML or a martin magna, but it's very good. i have had various leblancs which are the same stable, i judge. if someone is going to criticise all noblets on the grounds that a bass sax has poor intonation then i cannot argue about the bass, but other saxes in the same range do not necessarily share the same problems.

 

[mizmar]

I recall @jbtsax doing some overnight tarnish tests on keys using some kind of liquid?

a chemistry experiment based on an internet post... what could possibly go wrong!

One "the internet" suggests aging brass with Ammonia... now, where's the health warning emoji?