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Beginner Just started playing with a music group.

T

Terry

Senior Member
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61
Location
Wales
Hi everyone,
Started playing with a group of musicians including guitar, harmonica,bass guitar, some mandolins, bongo,sometimes a keyboard player.They are all buskers together and play regularly.I play alto sax I was just wondering how to play along with them as I don't get any sheet music ,they just tell me what key they playing in ,say they playing in C how do I know what the alto should play?nobody there seems to knows,I have struggled along and sometimes I fit in .Any help would be wonderful.
Tericea
 
Well, yeah...on the one hand, congrats for taking the plunge and playing with others. Good on ya'.

On the other hand...the instrumentation in that 'jam band' is....ummmm...
ummmm...
....a bit unfocused, let's say it that way.
And by their replies to your query, I assume their knowledge is somewhat limited...because your question has quite a simple answer:

Q - "how do I know what I should be playing, beyond going simply by the key signature ?"

A - "each tune has a chord progression. We will provide you with some chord changes"
or
"you can go online and find the chord changes/chord tabs for each tune"

...would be a good and helpful start, I'd think.
That the keys player and guit player (who obviously, I would think, know the chord changes and are playing 'em) did NOT supply you with this...is....odd....

As a horn player you need that info. Then once you have that info (be aware as Thom noted, Alto sax as a transposing instrument reads music in Eb, while a guit/bass/piano player reads in C concert, so you have to transpose the chord changes you find into the proper key of your horn) ....
you next need some rudimentary understanding of how to follow or play within a particular chord progression, beyond just staying in the key of the song and guessing at the notes....

Do you take lessons, @Terry ? Can you tell us how long you have been playing ?
 
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Thanks jaye, they are a bit of a mixture but it was nice of them to invite me to join in ,and it is a bit of a guessing game for me at the moment, some songs I can't seem to get but others I can fit in with.I did have about 2 years lessons before lockdown but not gone back to it yet,I would say I've played off and on for years I can read music quite good and play, I just wanted to try out some playing with other musicians other than playing alone in bedroom .I am enjoying the experience and I'm finding its challenging me, I just need to figure out if they say they playing in a certain key how to know what key it will be for me ,sorry if I'm a bit useless at this but I've never learned how to figure it out .
Thanks so much for reply.
 
Regardless of what key they tell you and what that ends up being on alto, you'll primarily be playing by ear. So I think your best approach for this kind of band is to try to learn the tunes from the recordings ahead of time, assuming you don't already know them. Then when you're playing with the group, work out the roots of the chords by listening to the bass player and the chord quality from the guitar or keyboard.

Also realize that guitar friendly keys are the most unfriendly alto keys. B, E, A, D and G, for example, are G#, C#, F#, B and E respectively on alto. So practice your major, minor, blues and pentatonic scales in those keys and the associated arpeggios.

Sounds pretty daunting, I know, but just start simple and work your way up. If you don't have a singer, you could start by just playing the melody and embellish from there.

Good luck, and have fun.
 
Terry said:
Hi everyone,
Started playing with a group of musicians including guitar, harmonica,bass guitar, some mandolins, bongo,sometimes a keyboard player.They are all buskers together and play regularly.I play alto sax I was just wondering how to play along with them as I don't get any sheet music ,they just tell me what key they playing in ,say they playing in C how do I know what the alto should play?nobody there seems to knows,I have struggled along and sometimes I fit in .Any help would be wonderful.
Tericea
Click to expand...
If you look online you will see charts that will show concert pitch keys and the relevant keys for alto and tenor always handy to have in your case if you cant memorise.Might even be able to find one on tbis site from way back.
Best of luck playing with the band..once you find the key that the alto should be played in you will be fine...enjoy the moment
 
lydian said:
Regardless of what key they tell you and what that ends up being on alto, you'll primarily be playing by ear. So I think your best approach for this kind of band is to try to learn the tunes from the recordings ahead of time, assuming you don't already know them. Then when you're playing with the group, work out the roots of the chords by listening to the bass player and the chord quality from the guitar or keyboard.

Also realize that guitar friendly keys are the most unfriendly alto keys. B, E, A, D and G, for example, are G#, C#, F#, B and E respectively on alto. So practice your major, minor, blues and pentatonic scales in those keys and the associated arpeggios.

Sounds pretty daunting, I know, but just start simple and work your way up. If you don't have a singer, you could start by just playing the melody and embellish from there.

Good luck, and have fun.
Click to expand...
Thanks Lydian for that good advice.
 
Ballymenaboy said:
If you look online you will see charts that will show concert pitch keys and the relevant keys for alto and tenor always handy to have in your case if you cant memorise.Might even be able to find one on tbis site from way back.
Best of luck playing with the band..once you find the key that the alto should be played in you will be fine...enjoy the moment
Click to expand...
I will take a look online thanks Ballymenaboy.
 
Simply, for alto, count down three semi tones.
C = B Bb A.

For tenor, count up two.
C = C# D.

Another way of working it out for alto is the relative minor.
C = A.
G = E.
D = B and so on.

After a while you'll get to know what the concert pitch for each finger position is.

There are no difficult keys on saxophone. Just ones you haven't practiced enough...yet.

"Trans what?" They say up the folk club.
 
If you buy the IReal pro app for iOS or Android you can download a chord sheet for all the music you band plays, set the transposing instrument to alto (Eb) then you can change the concert key to whatever the band plays and it will show you your chords for alto, and you can generate a backing track to practice at home, its a great piece of kit for about a tenner.
all you do is go on the IReal pro forum and enter your song and download it to your app.
 
Colin the Bear said:
Simply, for alto, count down three semi tones.
C = B Bb A.

For tenor, count up two.
C = C# D.

Another way of working it out for alto is the relative minor.
C = A.
G = E.
D = B and so on.

After a while you'll get to know what the concert pitch for each finger position is.

There are no difficult keys on saxophone. Just ones you haven't practiced enough...yet.

"Trans what?" They say up the folk club.
Click to expand...
Colin thank so much that is really helpful and easy to understand.
 
jazzdoh said:
If you buy the IReal pro app for iOS or Android you can download a chord sheet for all the music you band plays, set the transposing instrument to alto (Eb) then you can change the concert key to whatever the band plays and it will show you your chords for alto, and you can generate a backing track to practice at home, its a great piece of kit for about a tenner.
all you do is go on the IReal pro forum and enter your song and download it to your app.
Click to expand...
thank so much for that info jazzdoh.
 
Terry said:
hi thomsax,they play quite a mixture of stuff.

Ferry cross the mersey
King of the swingers
Eight days a week
Barbara Ann
Blueberry Hill
Come up and see me.
Click to expand...
Lots of good advice. But I guess you like to play with the band! So try to catch some ideas and lines. I'm just familiar with one song and that is Blueberry Hill. You can learn that easy. Just listen and play what you hear. This song is played in diggernt keys. It's long tones and not so complicated. The tempo is also nice. Not so many tones and not so fast.

Here is a sample with Fats Domino. Learn the hornpart by singing it or play it on your alto. Some kind of note bending here as well but you can drop that.
View: https://youtu.be/Z8IJhzeEBQ8


I don't know if you use pentatonic scales or bluesscales over the songs. The tricky keys B, F# and C# are not so hard to play if you use the bluesscale. B=1#, F=2 # and C#=3#. But you must get used to them. And one way is to listen to music in these keys. Of coure you can't use the bluesscales all the time. So give it a try while you are looking for a teacher/instructor.
JayeNM said:
On the other hand...the instrumentation in that 'jam band' is....ummmm...
ummmm...
....a bit unfocused, let's say it that way.
Click to expand...
Me like. I miss an accordion, fiddle. ..... My hero J.J. Cale was an open mnded musician. And the ABG as well.
View: https://youtu.be/vBDup86RyUg
 
thomsax said:
Lots of good advice. But I guess you like to play with the band! So try to catch some ideas and lines. I'm just familiar with one song and that is Blueberry Hill. You can learn that easy. Just listen and play what you hear. This song is played in diggernt keys. It's long tones and not so complicated. The tempo is also nice. Not so many tones and not so fast.

Here is a sample with Fats Domino. Learn the hornpart by singing it or play it on your alto. Some kind of note bending here as well but you can drop that.
View: https://youtu.be/Z8IJhzeEBQ8


I don't know if you use pentatonic scales or bluesscales over the songs. The tricky keys B, F# and C# are not so hard to play if you use the bluesscale. B=1#, F=2 # and C#=3#. But you must get used to them. And one way is to listen to music in these keys. Of coure you can't use the bluesscales all the time. So give it a try while you are looking for a teacher/instructor.

Me like. I miss an accordion, fiddle. ..... My hero J.J. Cale was an open mnded musician. And the ABG as well.
View: https://youtu.be/vBDup86RyUg
Click to expand...
absolutely brilliant .
 
Terry said:
absolutely brilliant .
Click to expand...
A teacher for you or an instructor for the band? I like to have a person that listen, play and give a band instructions. And also to pick songs that suits the band and make changes out of the abilty of the members. We had two music teachers and professional musicians that used to come and play with and listen to us. Guitar/vocal and bass/trumpet/vocal. Unfortunatly both are gone. For me it's more important that group is making progress. To split the cost for a band instructor is allso a benefit to consider. Maybe it's easier for us beacause we are just into blues, r&b, r&r ........ . I would like to take the opportunity to post more J.J. Cale clips. I like the laid back attitude. Of course these guys can play.

"Rhythm Bone". Blues, country, rock .... ????
View: https://youtu.be/b7rbsqfG2Tg


"Roll On/No Sweat".
View: https://youtu.be/Rkc75b6SO_A
 
Thanks Thomsax love the vids you've put up ,and thanks for advice it was my 3rd time playing with them Thursday, think you are right about instructor they need a bit more structure in my opinion but I can't say because I'm a new there.Im going take your advice and play along to Blueberry Hill see how I sound and play it next Thursday with them .
Tericea
 
Hi Terry,

Well done for joining the band! I'm sure you'll learn a lot from it but I can well imagine that it's frustrating and daunting at the moment! Give yourself some time:).

All good tips so far. I'm sure the guitarist can (and should!) help you out with the basic chords he/she plays for each song. Of course you then need to work out the equivalent on alto as @Colin the Bear says..

A couple of tips I would add are:
  • download the transposition chart at tamingthesaxophone.com/lessons/beginners/transposition​
  • you can look up the 'chord structure' for many of the songs you play on-line (for example at tabs.ultimate-guitar.com). These may not be the exact chords your band plays if it plays in a different key. But it'll give you a good idea of the basic 'chord structure' that you can transpose to the key your band plays in and then for alto​
  • record a session on your mobile phone so you play it back later with much more time to listen to what the chord changes are and work out what the equivalent alt sax scales are; an on-line 'piano' can help you to work out if a recorded chord is a C, G, D, etc.​
  • you don't mention vocals but some of the instruments (bass, guitar, mandolin, bongo) seem to me to be 'backing instruments' so it's worth considering (with your band members) where and how you want to play sax in each song.​
  • if you know just a couple of notes that fit in the chords where and how you want to play in each song, that can be enough; just one or two notes played repeatedly in the right rhythm at the right time can be very effective in a band!​
 
MikeMorrell said:
Hi Terry,

Well done for joining the band! I'm sure you'll learn a lot from it but I can well imagine that it's frustrating and daunting at the moment! Give yourself some time:).

All good tips so far. I'm sure the guitarist can (and should!) help you out with the basic chords he/she plays for each song. Of course you then need to work out the equivalent on alto as @Colin the Bear says..

A couple of tips I would add are:
  • download the transposition chart at tamingthesaxophone.com/lessons/beginners/transposition​
  • you can look up the 'chord structure' for many of the songs you play on-line (for example at tabs.ultimate-guitar.com). These may not be the exact chords your band plays if it plays in a different key. But it'll give you a good idea of the basic 'chord structure' that you can transpose to the key your band plays in and then for alto​
  • record a session on your mobile phone so you play it back later with much more time to listen to what the chord changes are and work out what the equivalent alt sax scales are; an on-line 'piano' can help you to work out if a recorded chord is a C, G, D, etc.​
  • you don't mention vocals but some of the instruments (bass, guitar, mandolin, bongo) seem to me to be 'backing instruments' so it's worth considering (with your band members) where and how you want to play sax in each song.​
  • if you know just a couple of notes that fit in the chords where and how you want to play in each song, that can be enough; just one or two notes played repeatedly in the right rhythm at the right time can be very effective in a band!​
Click to expand...
Thanks mike you are right a few notes that I have played in some of the songs was enough that it sounded great ,they even said so to me this week, so that made me feel good ,it is a bit daunting at times but I will just stick at it .The first two times I went I thought I can't do this I can't play this sax at all ,but last week was better so hopefully next week will be even better .Im so glad I put it to you all on here its been so helpful.
Tericea
 
Terry said:
Thanks mike you are right a few notes that I have played in some of the songs was enough that it sounded great ,they even said so to me this week, so that made me feel good ,it is a bit daunting at times but I will just stick at it .The first two times I went I thought I can't do this I can't play this sax at all ,but last week was better so hopefully next week will be even better .Im so glad I put it to you all on here its been so helpful.
Tericea
Click to expand...

Hi Terry,

FWIW, I play (as a complete amateur) almost exclusively in Big Bands with a detailed 'score' written out (with the exception of a few solo's that I just improvise by ear).

I've only ever once played along with a (UK) 'live band' on tour in NL without knowing what they were going to play and in which keys. I almost cancelled, but they insisted that I turn up! Like you, I found it very challenging and daunting but for me it turned out well. Probably the best 'sax experience' of my life!

I did have 3 advantages
  • I used to play guitar so I could tell - by looking at the guitarist's chord shapes - which keys/chords were being played.
  • Transposing 'concert pitch' (piano, guitar) to tenor sax (one letter up) -is perhaps easier to learn and remember than on alto sax (3 semitones down)
  • I jumped in whenever I thought that my sax could add anything to whatever the band was playing. I 'sat out' on many numbers simply because - as a sax player - I had nothing to add. Conversely, anything I had played would have been an 'ego-driven' disruptive distraction from the song.
  • the band sometimes actively encouraged me - off the cuff - to step out into 'the crowd' and play some some 'sax stuff' while they provided backing. Daunting, challenging, nervous? Yes, all of the these! But somehow I made it through and I got great responses from both the band and the audience.

I guess my bottom line is to decide - together with other band members - where and how you can best contribute to the band.
 

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