Other Adjustment period for a new neck?

[SaxBoss]

Also coming from a clarinet back ground, I found I had to work on my biting. I needed to relax it a bit and start working on the airflow.

To me it sounds like your horn needs an adjustment desperately

 

[Dr G]

I bought a Custom C1 neck for my Custom Z (to replace its G neck) and for all the hype I heard about the neck replacement - I don’t really feel it changes much or even helps my intonation that much…

Should I be testing this over the entire Headwind week trial period to really get to grips with it or is it time to give up on my custom Z and try other saxes? I don’t have such issues with intonation on my other saxes but it could be a player problem as I’m primarily a clarinettist. It may be worth me trying other mouthpieces as I’ve only trialed an Optimum 5 and SYOS 8 (that is too open for me)!

Red flags.
1). If you are using a clarinet-influenced embouchure on tenor, then you need to address that. A too-tight embouchure will mess with your intonation. Get lessons with a sax player to learn a relaxed embouchure, check to see that you are taking in the correct amount of mouthpiece, and ensure that you use proper airstream and support.

2). You say that you’ve played tenor for three years longer than the other saxes, but with what level of commitment? The bit about “I’ve only trialed...” two mouthpieces leaves me wondering what mouthpiece/reed setup you are using.

You have a lot to sort out before you get to swapping necks. Your horn may be perfectly fine. Get it checked for leaks, then ask an experienced player to evaluate it.

 

[alexandrajones0]

Stuffy middle D is normal for sax. You brighten it up with technique and experience. It’s a beautiful note once mastered. C# must be controlled with voicing and embouchure. All beginners have a terrible C# and D. I recommend more practice instead of gear changes.

this is fair, they’ve been worse when my embrochure was poor but I have less issues on bari/alto than tenor (though that may be bass clarinet mouthpiece size tricking my brain into the wrong embrochure !)

Also coming from a clarinet back ground, I found I had to work on my biting. I needed to relax it a bit and start working on the airflow.

To me it sounds like your horn needs an adjustment desperately

in terms of biting, it’s a problem i had on clarinet. i got lambasted by a pro for it and then i fixed it so is less of an issue on sax

Red flags.
1). If you are using a clarinet-influenced embouchure on tenor, then you need to address that. A too-tight embouchure will mess with your intonation. Get lessons with a sax player to learn a relaxed embouchure, check to see that you are taking in the correct amount of mouthpiece, and ensure that you use proper airstream and support.

2). You say that you’ve played tenor for three years longer than the other saxes, but with what level of commitment? The bit about “I’ve only trialed...” two mouthpieces leaves me wondering what mouthpiece/reed setup you are using.

You have a lot to sort out before you get to swapping necks. Your horn may be perfectly fine. Get it checked for leaks, then ask an experienced player to evaluate it.

probably about 6-7 hours a week of practice for the past 2 years significantly more during lockdown. but my primary instrument is orchestral bass clarinet these days which gets as long as i can manage

regarding mouthpiece trials - i meant i’d only tried the new neck with two mouthpieces, i’ve tried a bunch with my normal setup. optimum 5 with vandoren 3 for more “refined” styles and for “jazz” mouthpiece i love the sound of the SYOS with either a BSS 2.5 or V12 2.5 but the intonation issues on that piece are just my embrochure not being secure enough - i wouldn’t blame the horn for that. the optimum is incredibly easy to control though, just still voices weirdly - the resonant tones to my ears are often 5-10 cents off A440 which bothers me…

it’s probably more of a bass clarinet influenced embrochure, but I don’t think it’s inaccurate to suggest that voicings and long tones can go a long way to assist - I just don’t see the point in fighting a horn if I have less issues with another one (and i may not!)

 

[Colin the Bear]

5 to 10 cents... I wish. Well within acceptable limits or "just" harmony. Put the tuner away. It's for guitars.

 

[skeller047]

+1 on getting your horn checked for leaks. HOWEVER, the notes you complain about are the usual suspects.

For middle D there is a “ballad” fingering that is more in tune and not stuffy. Instead of the octave key, use the palm D key. That is, finger D the normal way but add palm D and don’t press the octave key with your thumb. Not good for fast passages, obviously, but great when you need sugar on that note.

For middle G (I’m assuming G2), you just need to make sure your embouchure is good. I get the feeling you might be biting too much - tenor requires less jaw pressure than clarinet or alto or even bass clarinet. But light pressure on the reed, making sure you are taking in enough mouthpiece and keeping your embouchure muscles firm will solidify that note a lot. I know that seems contradictory - firm embouchure but light reed pressure, but that’s what is needed.

For open C#, especially C#3, try adding any finger with the right hand. This will lower the bis Bb key and bring the pitch down. Again this is not for fast passages, bit if you have to play a strong C#3 this might help.

Regarding necks, I changed necks on my Mark VI tenor, and it made a huge improvement, but this was more of a tonal response thing than intonation.

 

[lydian]

While these are nice tricks to know, they avoid learning to play those notes correctly. If this were my student, I’d make these alternate fingerings off limits until they could play the primary fingerings well. Would you encourage a beginner clarinet player to always use side keys to avoid the break?

 

[alexandrajones0]

+1 on getting your horn checked for leaks. HOWEVER, the notes you complain about are the usual suspects.

For middle D there is a “ballad” fingering that is more in tune and not stuffy. Instead of the octave key, use the palm D key. That is, finger D the normal way but add palm D and don’t press the octave key with your thumb. Not good for fast passages, obviously, but great when you need sugar on that note.

For middle G (I’m assuming G2), you just need to make sure your embouchure is good. I get the feeling you might be biting too much - tenor requires less jaw pressure than clarinet or alto or even bass clarinet. But light pressure on the reed, making sure you are taking in enough mouthpiece and keeping your embouchure muscles firm will solidify that note a lot. I know that seems contradictory - firm embouchure but light reed pressure, but that’s what is needed.

For open C#, especially C#3, try adding any finger with the right hand. This will lower the bis Bb key and bring the pitch down. Again this is not for fast passages, bit if you have to play a strong C#3 this might help.

Regarding necks, I changed necks on my Mark VI tenor, and it made a huge improvement, but this was more of a tonal response thing than intonation.

All three fingers down on RH is my upper C# fingering that brings it into tune, for middle C# I just have to lip it up 10c as the octave key and third finger LH trick was way sharp for me but works coming down from above!

Thanks for the tips on D&G I’ll see if they make a difference and keep going working on voicing them.

While these are nice tricks to know, they avoid learning to play those notes correctly. If this were my student, I’d make these alternate fingerings off limits until they could play the primary fingerings well. Would you encourage a beginner clarinet player to always use side keys to avoid the break?

I would probably tell a beginner to use side key Eb/Bb as they’re significantly more in tune than the long fingerings, I wouldn’t for side keys as they’re not in tune. I take your point though, more long tones before gear! I need to keep my tenor for a while anyways before looking at changes but this thread has been really helpful. as it turns out a different neck cannot cheat hard work on embrochure

 

[jazzdoh]

as it turns out a different neck cannot cheat hard work on embrochure

This is so true, a new neck can sometimes make intonation better but it can also make it worse.
I would get another opinion on your horn and this will rule out any doubt over leaks etc.

You already know that the saxophone isn't an exact science no horn plays in tune and we as sax players have to adapt to get it acceptable, some horns are worse than others but generally Yamaha's are some of the best regarding intonation.

Good luck and hope you sort this out.

 

[eb424]

Its a funny old game my z came with both the c1 and g1 and the c1 is my prefered crook..more in tune..

 

[AaronTMartin78]

I play Yamaha 62s on alto and tenor (a 'ii' for the alto and a 'iii' for the tenor). My alto came with the G1 neck, and after hearing about the V1 neck from a friend who is a saxophone professor, I noticed a big improvement in intonation and (think) I felt an improvement in my sound. I did the same thing for my tenor, but that V1 neck did not improve things for me as much as the change in alto neck did (the 62iii tenor came with the '62' neck). I went back to the V1 neck for tenor and after some weeks I'm starting to get used to it and I think I appreciate it a bit more now. Having said all this, I do not think that the $850 I spent on two necks over the course of a year or two were game-changers. The problems are with me and my voicing (or lack thereof) and not the instrument.

 

[lydian]

All three fingers down on RH is my upper C# fingering that brings it into tune, for middle C# I just have to lip it up 10c as the octave key and third finger LH trick was way sharp for me but works coming down from above!

Thanks for the tips on D&G I’ll see if they make a difference and keep going working on voicing them.

I would probably tell a beginner to use side key Eb/Bb as they’re significantly more in tune than the long fingerings, I wouldn’t for side keys as they’re not in tune. I take your point though, more long tones before gear! I need to keep my tenor for a while anyways before looking at changes but this thread has been really helpful. as it turns out a different neck cannot cheat hard work on embrochure

Side Eb, long Bb? Never heard of these.

 

[rhysonsax]

Long Bb is 1 + 1 which I think is a clarinet fingering.

Rhys

 

[mizmar]

Overtone low Bb is even longer!

 

[lydian]

Long Bb is 1 + 1 which I think is a clarinet fingering.

Rhys

I was taught that was fork Bb.

EDIT: I see now this was the response to my rhetorical question about having a student use trill key fingerings on clarinet as the primary fingerings. My point was to learn the correct way before resorting to tricks.

 

[DavidUK]

Back to basics...

Personally, if I had any doubts about the horn having issues I'd: 1/ Take it to a tech to check; 2/ Try alternative tenors (ideally the same model) to see if the issue is me, not my horn.

 

[alexandrajones0]

I was taught that was fork Bb.

EDIT: I see now this was the response to my rhetorical question about having a student use trill key fingerings on clarinet as the primary fingerings. My point was to learn the correct way before resorting to tricks.

it was a tongue in cheek response haha i agree with you