Front F Key bending

[saxyjt]

Today I finally discovered a tune where the front F key was useful. Thats Naima in Bb, starting on high D or D3. It then goes down to C3 and up to F3 followed by G2. So front F comes handy after the C, but then I struggled with the following G and realized the front F key was quite far away from the B key. That's on a Yamaha YTS-23. I thought it was no right and looking at my YTS-62 confirmed it.

Since it is a simple pearl key at the end of an angled arm, I decided to bend it so it comes closer to the B key. See below:

Here on a YTS-25, very much the same a what it was on the 23 originally:

As you may have noticed, I still have to change the front F key pearl to match the black pearls around. On the 25 just above the color difference is mainly due to the light, except that I used an abalone for the front F key. I don't have convex black pearl keys for that size.

I wonder why Yamaha set this F key so far from the B key. Later models have a shaped key that comes very close.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Yamaha aren't alone - I often see new horns with front top F touchpieces that are placed badly. I guess the assumption is that players will lift the forefinger and move it back to make the note, but this is pretty much useless for players who simply like to roll the finger back.
Ideally the touchpiece should be placed and angled so that both techniques will work.
The ones fitted to the WO Yanis are superb.

 

[jbtsax]

The "teardrop" shaped front F key has always felt more comfortable to me than the pearl button. In fact I have made custom front F keys in that shape for a couple of customers who own a Mark VI.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Rather than bending the key to make it closer to the cup underneath some cork or felt under the touch piece or at the other end of the arm, if there's play, may have fallen off or worn or need to be inserted for the first time.

Front F Key Cork

 

[Stephen Howard]

Closer in this instance refers to the distance between the touchpieces/pearls rather than the height of the F touchpiece above the B key cup.

 

[spike]

The "teardrop" shaped front F key has always felt more comfortable to me than the pearl button.

My old SX90 tenor has a front F teardrop, makes it so much more eezy for LH1 when playing altissimo or anywhere on the top of the horn.
You can get used to anything . . .

 

[spike]

Just checked my horns and they all have a front F teardrop.
Would be interesting to know what was the first horn with a front F teardrop?

 

[saxyjt]

Rather than bending the key to make it closer to the cup underneath some cork or felt under the touch piece or at the other end of the arm, if there's play, may have fallen off or worn or need to be inserted for the first time.

Front F Key Cork

Slight misunderstanding here Colin. It's not vertically that it required tweaking, but horizontally to reduce the movement of the forefinger between B and F. If you compare the 2 images, the F key in the above one is about 3mm closer to the B key. Simple and effective fix!

 

[Colin the Bear]

I see. Closer, not closer. I also like the teardrop shape. It like it to operate like the A key on a clarinet.

 

[JayeNM]

Just checked my horns and they all have a front F teardrop.
Would be interesting to know what was the first horn with a front F teardrop?

It isn't a 'new' detail...but rather one which actually appeared on old horns (talking '30's...I recall some Holtons and a Max Keilwerth, for instance), then vanished, then came back....

 

[jbtsax]

It isn't a 'new' detail...but rather one which actually appeared on old horns (talking '30's...I recall some Holtons and a Max Keilwerth, for instance), then vanished, then came back....

Good information. The first I noticed a front F key that shape was on a Yamaha.

 

[saxyjt]

Today I noticed that C2 was stuffy, when I played my YTS 23. I thought, I really need to check the key heights on that horn. That's strange, I never noticed this issue before. So I went to my bench and tarted playing with some screws to realize that wasn't the problem!

Bending the front F key, I lowered the key so that it prevents the B and Bb keys from opening as they should. A quick comparison with my 62 showed at least 1mm difference. I'll fix it tomorrow and share the results. But I'm quite sure it'll make things better...

 

[Ivan]

Would be interesting to know what was the first horn with a front F teardrop?

Can't answer that

But for Selmer there is a transition from pearl on my SA80 to teardrop on my SA80II

 

[Greg Strange]

Good information. The first I noticed a front F key that shape was on a Yamaha.

Yamaha introduced their teardrop Front F with the 32 (or 52 in the U.S.A.) and 62 series saxes in the late 1970s...i don't where Yamaha got the idea from, maybe Eugene Rousseau?

Greg S.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Bending the front F key, I lowered the key so that it prevents the B and Bb keys from opening as they should. A quick comparison with my 62 showed at least 1mm difference. I'll fix it tomorrow and share the results. But I'm quite sure it'll make things better...

While the resting height of the front top F key can affect that of the top B key, it's not linked to the Bis Bb...so I don't see how this key would now not be opening fully.
If there's something iffy with the Bis B key it may well be the cause of the stuffy C - so the first thing you'll need to check is that the A, Bis Bb and Auxiliary B keys close fully when the A key is pressed.

 

[saxyjt]

While the resting height of the front top F key can affect that of the top B key, it's not linked to the Bis Bb...so I don't see how this key would now not be opening fully.
If there's something iffy with the Bis B key it may well be the cause of the stuffy C - so the first thing you'll need to check is that the A, Bis Bb and Auxiliary B keys close fully when the A key is pressed.

Sorry, I named them wrong. I get confused with all these keys opening and closing in a funny order... Isn't what you call the Auxiliary B key the primary C key?

 

[Stephen Howard]

Sorry, I named them wrong. I get confused with all these keys opening and closing in a funny order... Isn't what you call the Auxiliary B key the primary C key?

Yep, that's the one. The (trick) question is...what's the secondary C key?

 

[jbtsax]

In my lexicon the small tonehole and its keycup above the B is called the C key/tonehole. The next is called the B key and tonehole, the next the Bis key and tonehole, and so on. Some folks call the A touch the C key because it is the one you press to play the note C. Likewise they call the E key on the lower stack the F# key because you press it to play the note F#. To confuse things even further I have heard the argument that the tonehole closed by the G keycup should be called the A tonehole because it vents the note A. I am comfortable with calling the keycup and touch that are closed to produce a note by the name of that note regardless of where it is vented, but I acknowledge other systems work for other folks as well.

 

[Stephen Howard]

...which is why I call it the Auxiliary B/F - so that it doesn't correspond to any fingered note.
The Dilbert/Filbert key would work just as well.

 

[saxyjt]

Yep, that's the one. The (trick) question is...what's the secondary C key?

That would be the alternate C or side C, on the opposite side.

That's how I'd interpret the following key heights:

YTS-23/25/275/32/475/52/575/62:

Low Bb - 9.8
Low B - 10.0
Low C# - 9.0
Low C - 10.6
Eb - 7.8
D - 9.0
E - 7.9
F - 8.4
F# - 7.1
G# - 7.1
G - 7.0
A - 5.5
Bb - 5.0
B - 5.5
C - 4.3
High E - 4.5
Side F# - 5.5
Side Bb - 5.5
Side C - 4.5
High D - 4.5
High Eb - 4.5
High F - 4.5
Front F - 3.0
Body pip - 2.5
High F# - 4.0 (YTS-23 - n/a)
Neck pip - 3.0

I found this on SOTW as recommended key heights. I'm not sure where it comes from... Originally!

But if I can't read what key is what, it's useless. To me.