Whisper Not - What Key/Mode?

[nigeld]

I'm confused about what key or mode "Whisper Not", by Benny Golson, is in.
In concert pitch it sounds as if it is in C minor, and this is what the first chord suggests, but the key signature contains only one flat.
Can anyone explain? C Mixolydian?
Does it matter?

 

[brianr]

Im not sure that the key sig is correct in your lead sheet.

the 2nd note is the 5th of the chord.

So, yours should show a key sig of 3 flats. Ie C minor

Key sig of one flat would be D minor. First 2 notes would be D and A .

I think !!!!!!

 

[Dibbs]

D minor.

It does start off unusually with a Cm7 followed by a ii V i in Gm. At that point it feels like "maybe Gm". Then there's a ii V i in Dm and you aren't really sure any more. Then the repeat of the ii V i in Dm finally convinces the ear that it is in Dm and that the Gm was actually a iv. The remaining bar and a half consists of a turnaround to get back to the starting Cm7.

Does it matter? - Not really.

 

[Dibbs]

Im not sure that the key sig is correct in your lead sheet.

the 2nd note is the 5th of the chord.

So, yours should show a key sig of 3 flats. Ie C minor

Key sig of one flat would be D minor. First 2 notes would be D and A .

I think !!!!!!

No, the sheet is correct in that regard. Concert key I think; not transposed for sax. It misses out some lovely bass movement though i.e.

Cm7 Cm7/Bb | Am7b5 D7 | Gm7 Gm7/F | Em7b5 A7 | etc.

 

[brianr]

No, the sheet is correct in that regard.

I think the jury is still out on that one.

Some would say it isnt “correct”, others say it is.

I agree the the tonality is mostly D minor. But the ambiguity comes from that first bar of C minor

I think the question of what the key signature should be is determined by how we answer this question.
Is this tune in C minor or D minor?

The example shown in post one above, the key is shown as D minor. One flat

But I have versions with the melody written with the same notes, with first chord also as C minor and it is written as 3 flats, suggesting a key of C minor.
Aebersold, for example.

Or this.

whisper not sheet music - Google Search:

 

[jbtsax]

@brianr is correct. I called the tune up in Biab and with those notes in the melody, it shows a key signature of 3 flats putting the tune in C minor.

 

[Dibbs]

Regardless of what BIAB says I totally disagree. The tonal centre moves around but the goal is clearly the Dm it ends on.

If you need more convincing here's an arrangement based on the original manuscript.

http://www.ejazzlines.com/mc_files/2/whisper_not_jlp-8195.pdf
http://www.ejazzlines.com/mc_files/2/jlp7314.pdf

 

[nigeld]

I looked up various examples of sheet music on the web. Sometimes it has one flat and sometimes three. The Jazz Line Publications score we are using in our big band is the one that @Dibbs references and it has one flat (i.e. 2 sharps for bari).

If the tune is in C minor, I would have thought most A's and all E's would be flat, but they aren't.

 

[Dibbs]

C minor is an alternative fact. Fake news.

You have to listen to it. It doesn't sound like C minor. When it goes back to repeat the first 8, the C minor chord doesn't feel like we've gone home. It feels like we're off somewhere new.

Check out Beethoven's 1st Symphony in C major.

Famously, he starts with a perfect cadence in F, an interrupted cadence in Am and then a perfect cadence in G. But its definitely in C.

 

[jbtsax]

With respect @Dibbs I see and hear it differently. At the end of each A section and the end of the bridge there is a G7 that leads back to the Cm that the tune starts and ends on. I agree that the harmony moves around so much that there is no strong tonal center, but the one I hear is C minor, and most of the sheet music and lead sheets I called up on the web indicate that key signature as well.

 

[Morgan Fry]

C minor is just incorrect. I don't care how often the mistake is repeated, it's still a mistake. The only time the melody does resolve it's with a blues lick in D minor. If you listen to it or look at correct changes that don't ignore the bass note when it matters, the first 2 bars are clearly a turnaround to the Gm (which starts the same turnaround to the Dm), the C minor in bar one is functioning as something like a secondary subdominant.

eta: Just saw Dibbs' post. Golson's arrangement says D minor.

 

[jbtsax]

Ok. I was moved by the strong arguments for D minor to take another look. Most of the sheet music I saw had only the first page without the ending of the song. I since located a complete lead sheet and found the resolution to Dm at the end of the song. I also found several more ii - V - i sequences resolving to D minor. Thanks for the correction. Moral of the story, "you can't trust a key signature".

 

[saxyjt]

France Musique, if you can get it from your country has a great program called 'repassez moi l'standard' and they recently used Whisper Not as the standard of the day.

Enjoy!

If you can.

 

[nigeld]

Many thanks to @brianr @Dibbs @jbtsax and @Morgan Fry for their input.
The moral of the tale seems to be to look at the end of the piece, and not just the beginning.
In this case, the end is solidly in D minor concert (1 flat), even though the opening is C minor.

On a historical note, @Dibbs and @Morgan Fry both mention some chord changes that are not in my original post. My version is the same as the JazzLines one referenced by Dibbs in post 7. It is a 1959 arrangement by Al Cohn for the Quincy Jones Band, subsequently modified by Quincy Jones. So it is not necessarily exactly the same as Ben Golson's version, but it may possibly be older than the version in jbtsax's post #12.

 

[nigeld]

Whisper Not could be a candidate for November Ballad Of The Month, if anyone is willing to host it. (I am already host for SOTM this month.)
I can provide the notes and chord chart, but I don't have a backing track.

 

[saxyjt]

For what it's worth, on Benny Golson's web site, the very same score has 3 flats!

(Password for PDFs is jazzcat)

I love this tune, but I'm struggling to play it.

 

[nigeld]

For what it's worth, on Benny Golson's web site, the very same score has 3 flats!

So it seems we can choose between Benny Golson (leader of the "starting key is most important" party) and Al Cohn (leader of the "ending key is most important" party). Since Golson wrote the song, his view does have considerable weight, but it doesn't mean he is right (whatever that means).

Anyone for five sharps?

 

[Morgan Fry]

So it seems we can choose between Benny Golson (leader of the "starting key is most important" party) and Al Cohn (leader of the "ending key is most important" party).

Not quite. Look at the other pdf @Dibbs posted. It's the first chorus of Golson's arrangement for Dizzy's band. Presumably this is the correct changes.

One thing this discussion brings up is how little the key signature matters sometimes. The chords are what they are, what key to call it is somewhat academic. Although if you call it and the piano player asks what key, you better be on the same page!

 

[rhysonsax]

I have a book of written out piano solos called "The Genius of Benny Golson" - a 1989 Hal Leonard book by Benny himself, who writes in the foreword that "I have employed some of the identical voicings that I use in my arrangements for big bands and small combos."

"Whisper Not" is written with three flats and has the following chords:

| Cm Cm7 | Am7b5 D7(b9) | Gm Gm7 | Em7(b5) A7(b9) |
| Dm Dm7 | Em7(b5) A7(b9) | Dm7 Em7 | Em7 G7(b9) |
| Cm Cm7 | Am7b5 D7(b9) | Gm Gm7 | Em7(b5) A7(b9) |
| Dm Dm7 | Em7(b5) A7(b9) | Dm7 Em7 | Fm7 Bb9 |
| Am (b5) | D7 | Gm | Gm7 |
| Em7 (b5) | A13(b9) | Dm7(b5) | G7(b9) |
| Cm Cm7 | Am7b5 D7(b9) | Gm Gm7 | Em7(b5) A7(b9) |
| Dm Dm7 | Em7(b5) A7(b9) | Dm Dm7 | Ab7 G7 |

The extended ending finishes on a Dm9. Does that help ?

Rhys

PS The bass notes seem to be important, so here are my best interpretations:

| C Bb | A D | G F | E A |
| D C | E A | D E | Ab G |
| C Bb | A D | G F | E A |
| D C | E A | D E | F Bb |
| A| D | G | F |
| E | A | D | G |
| C Bb | A D | G F | E A |
| D C | E A | D C | Ab G |

 

[nigeld]

What we have seen is that Benny Golson has published the song at different times with different key signatures: one flat and three flats.

Since the composer seems not to be bothered, maybe I won't be either.