Tone Embouchure types

[Mack]

When I first started playing, I took the usual advice and curved my lower lip over my teeth to provide a cushion for the mouthpiece. I then heard somewhere that jazz players don't do this, but instead just bunch up the lower lip in front of the teeth instead. This allows the lower jaw to move more freely, allowing more variety and expression in tone. I have been playing like that for several years now, and I think it works well. However I now play exclusively classical music, and I find that getting the purity of tone on long notes is very hard on my embouchure, and I still get tired quite quickly, despite a fair amount of long tone practice. I occasionally try going back to the 'lip over the teeth' embouchure, and it is less tiring, but seems to make it harder to play the larger intervals which acquire an alteration of the jaw/mouth cavity.

I don't want to start messing around adapting to a different embouchure if it is not a good idea - Can anyone give advice on developing a good classical embouchure?

I play soprano sax with either a Selmer S80 E or a Vandoren Optimum SL5.

Thanks!

 

[Colin the Bear]

If your embouchure is getting tired it's either under exercised or pushed too hard. The solution to the first is to play/practice more often. The solution to the second is more complicated and may involve changing your set up to one that's easier on your chops. Not playing as loud may help too. Pushing at 100% is tiring and so backing off to 90% may save your embouchure with very little drop in volume.

 

[jbtsax]

I occasionally try going back to the 'lip over the teeth' embouchure, and it is less tiring, but seems to make it harder to play the larger intervals which acquire [require?] an alteration of the jaw/mouth cavity. I don't want to start messing around adapting to a different embouchure if it is not a good idea - Can anyone give advice on developing a good classical embouchure?

I play soprano sax with either a Selmer S80 E or a Vandoren Optimum SL5.

Thanks!

I was reading along and then the alarm bells sounded when I read the statement I have highlighted. I will address that in a separate post, but first my advice about a "classical" saxophone embouchure. There are of course different schools of though on this but the one considered to be the mainstream saxophone pedagogy, at least in the U.S. is the concept of embouchure taught by Marcel Mule who followed Adolphe Sax at the Paris Conservatory and influenced most of the classical saxophonists alive today including Larry Teal, Eugene Rousseau, Fred Hemke, Don Sinta, etc.

Sometimes called the "Teal Wheel", this embouchure can be described as a big rubber band around the mouthpiece with pressure coming from all sides. In its simplest description, the purpose of the embouchure is to provide an airtight seal around the mouthpiece. The book "The Art of Saxophone Playing" by Larry Teal provides an excellent description of this embouchure.

How to teach the saxophone embouchure was taught to me by Dr, Ray Smith at BYU, one of Rousseau's most accomplished students. He describes it as a tug-o-war between the "EE" muscles at the corners of the mouth pulling out, and the "OO" muscles at the corners pushing in at the same time. On a clarinet,the tug-o-war ends in a tie forming a tight stretched bottom lip and a flat chin. On the saxophone, the "OO's" win the tug-o-war even though the "EE's" don't give up completely. This results in a slightly rounded chin and a bottom lip that is more of a "cushion" for the reed to rest upon. The push inward toward the sides of the reed by the "OO" muscles is an essential part of this embouchure.

In this embouchure the lower lip is pushed back just enough to cover the lower teeth and no further. The top teeth press against the top of the mouthpiece to support the weight of the head. The teeth should have a feeling of being "open" with the jaw and chin pulling down slightly as the lower lip pushes up to meet the reed. This is the secret of this traditional embouchure to prevent "biting" and playing too high on the input pitch.

 

[jbtsax]

Part Deux "The Alarm Bells"

The music pictured below "Caprice en forme de Valse" by Paul Bonneau is a standard part of classical saxophone literature. As you can see there are leaps up and down throughout and the piece is meant to be played very fast. Page 2 (not shown) is even worse. I had played all through high school and college as an undergraduate changing my embouchure as I went from one register to the next and somehow got away with it. And then my master's recital came along with this piece recommended by the chair of my graduate committee and I couldn't begin to play it! There was simply no time to change my embouchure setting at each wide interval. To make a long story short, at age 24 I had to stop and go back to the beginning and learn to play the saxophone all over again learning to play every note in every register without making an embouchure change or adjustment. It was not easy to say the least, but to be clear, one can learn to use air speed and air direction to help make the rapid register changes on a piece like this. I was a mostly "self taught" saxophone student from a small town in Wyoming and got away with my bad habits until I met Bonneau's Caprice and the Caprice won.

 

[Guenne]

Hi,

after years (well - decades) of practicing, findings, frustrations, I think it only works the other way round.
If your ears are able to hear a classical or jazz sound, it will come out. In my opinion it's more than lip in or out. Your brain will transfer the necessary information to your muscles - much faster than on the "I have to do this or that" level.

In order to be able to do so, I play (and recommend to my students) a kind of embouchure that is neither a "lip out" nor a "lip in" embouchure.
Lips should be in a "natural" position. The less you change from your normal lip position compared to playing, the better IMHO. That depends on one's anatomy of course.

I subscribe to @jbtsax 's point of view in his posting above. Once you get "register changes", where they occur, how they feel, the easier it gets, the better the horn sounds, the better you play in tune.

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Ne0Wolf7]

Part Deux "The Alarm Bells"

The music pictured below "Caprice en forme de Valse" by Paul Bonneau is a standard part of classical saxophone literature. As you can see there are leaps up and down throughout and the piece is meant to be played very fast. Page 2 (not shown) is even worse. I had played all through high school and college as an undergraduate changing my embouchure as I went from one register to the next and somehow got away with it. And then my master's recital came along with this piece recommended by the chair of my graduate committee and I couldn't begin to play it! There was simply no time to change my embouchure setting at each wide interval. To make a long story short, at age 24 I had to stop and go back to the beginning and learn to play the saxophone all over again learning to play every note in every register without making an embouchure change or adjustment. It was not easy to say the least, but to be clear, one can learn to use air speed and air direction to help make the rapid register changes on a piece like this. I was a mostly "self taught" saxophone student from a small town in Wyoming and got away with my bad habits until I met Bonneau's Caprice and the Caprice won.

A bit off topic, but my friend, a 14 year old alto player, did this peice for his performance assessment and received a perfect score. He never ceases to make the rest of us feel bad

 

[Mack]

one can learn to use air speed and air direction

Can you say any more about that?

Thanks for the informative reply by the way - helpful as ever.


Regards

Mack

 

[kevgermany]

I pretty much play 100% classical, lip out, bit not too far out. Tiring until you're used to it. No tone problems. Guess it's as said before... Embouchure and air. My lips are tight on the reed. No raspberries/kazoo for it.

 

[jbtsax]

I pretty much play 100% classical, lip out, bit not too far out. Tiring until you're used to it. No tone problems. Guess it's as said before... Embouchure and air. My lips are tight on the reed. No raspberries/kazoo for it.

Kev, you are in a class all by yourself, and I mean that in a good way. You have found something that works for you and that is great.