Mouthpieces Curing upper register sharpness

[Saxmole]

As I've indicated elsewhere I play an 80 year old Kohlert Pennsylvania Special tenor which causes me some intonation problems in the upper register (particularly A2 and B2). My normal set-up is a Selmer soloist C* with vandoren blue 2 1/2 reeds. I have read that changing MP/reed set-up can improve intonation issues i.e. choosing a larger chamber MP or one with a wider tip opening; using a harder reed etc. Before I blow all my Christmas money on a new MP I would be grateful for any advice from more 'seasoned' players.

 

[kevgermany]

Try pulling the mouthpiece out a touch and tightening up your embouchure on the lower notes. One thing I noticed on my Kohlert alto is that if that badly seated pads affect intonation of individual notes, pads proud of the keys flatten notes. Mine has a very flat C#, which requires a bit of work to keep in tune.

 

[jonf]

My advice? Don't do much more than listen to people's views. What you really need to do is take your horn to a large, reputable shop and blow through as many mouthpieces as you can try. See what suits you, and see if that helps with the intonation.

 

[jbtsax]

Sometimes it helps to diagnose the problem by "overblowing" the low A an octave higher and then adding the octave key afterward to see how much sharpness the "compromised" position of the octave vent adds. You can do this on the B as well.

I know from experience that playing too high on the mouthpiece pitch with an embouchure that is too tight can exacerbate the natural sharpness of some of the upper register notes as well as D2. The mp pitch on tenor should be no higher than a G concert. The pitch of the mouthpiece plus neck should be close to E concert.
A harder reed is definitely not a solution since it will make the high notes even sharper.

If you find that the high A and B are quite sharp even without the octave key, it probably has to do with the taper of the neck. Curt Altarac at Music Medic has been adjusting octaves that are too wide by putting an insert into the end of the neck to increase the amount of taper. There is a description here: Bench Notes #23

 

[Salva Domingo]

Hi Saxmole, I think that the advices that jbtsax is providing are great. Just another thing I would suggest is to lend your sax to another player and get a second opinion. Take into account that the resonances (in your case A2 and B2) are generated by coupling your cavity with the sax one. Even the way you make pressure with your stomach has an effect. Sometimes the balance between player, mp, reed and sax are not working smoothly. I just suggest that maybe you can "train" yourself how to get better sound even with the same equipment. Now, if the problem is happening in the same way for any other player for sure you will have to change something in the equipment... mp, reed, something in the sax... or a combination of things.

 

[Colin the Bear]

A2 B3 are very flexible. It's possible to bend notes in this area down by several semitones. Is it a problem when using a tuner or when playing? After much reading and discussion on here I use the tuner to tune the sax to A 440 and then check that the extremes are comfortable. Sometimes a small adjustment of the mouthpiece is needed to get the bottom and top to sing. Sometimes a reed won't sing both ends so I position it to get the best out of it.

I agree with the above that suggestions as to set up are valuable only to let you know what's available. Your chops are unique to you, so your set up will be too.

 

[Saxmole]

Many thanks for taking the time to reply; I appreciate all the advice. I suppose I was really trying to establish whether my intonation difficulties stemmed from something intrinsically wrong with the horn. Many players of vintage instruments report peculiarities and quirks and the additional effort needed to play 'in tune' throughout the horn's range. I'm also aware that matching MP/reed to instrument is more crucial when playing an older horn. So I guess my question is: Does a Selmer soloist C*/ vandoren blue 2 1/2 reed set-up increase or decrease my chances of playing a Penn Special in tune?

 

[kevgermany]

Older mouthpieces tended to be larger chambered than the soloists. This does affect intonation.

 

[Salva Domingo]

Hi again Saxmole, trying to answer to your last question... in my honest opinion I would say that will depend on the player! For instance, I own a really nice old Dolnet Paris tenor similar to the one once Lester Young played. And I have to say that it is really difficult for me to play it comfortable, and I've tried any setup I could figure out (mp, reeds...). But my teacher is able to get REALLY nice sounds from it! So as somebody said already, you should try as many combinations as possible to get the best mp/reed that helps YOU to feel comfortable. Only if you can check that nobody is able to get good sound from the sax you can start to think that something is wrong in it.

 

[ellinas]

Well I think the OP should double check the horn is OK with a reputable tech.
I remember when I got my Beaugnier Duke Tenor it was so badly setup that the intonation was awful... Sharp in the upper register and Flat from C downwards. A small disaster.
After taking it to my tech who is a great one, I received my horn with a Yamaha like intonation. Almost Perfect.
The only thing that I had to do to tune it is to push the mouthpiece into a further position than I'm used to. Lately I've heard that most Beaugniers get set up like this.

Sometimes techs can do wonders.
Experienced players can overcome such pitch tendencies and small leaks because their brain is trained to solve these things with their embouchoure and by pressing harder the keys.

I may be the only one that says that giving your horn to a very experienced player sometimes can get misleading result.

A honest and skilled tech can tell for sure what's wrong with your sax, or yourself.
And of course your teacher

 

[kevgermany]

Going on from Ellinas' comments, and to expand more on my original ones, I was wondering if it is a setup issue, and if a tech could sort it out. Key heights have a big effect on intonation. But so does the mouthpiece.

 

[aldevis]

I was wondering if it is a setup issue, and if a tech could sort it out. Key heights have a big effect on intonation. But so does the mouthpiece.

And mouthpieces are the easiest thing to experiment with.
On the other hand, I would bet on a Soloist as an in-tune mouthpiece. Try a big chamber (borrow it) and see how it goes.
A few threads around here about how to approach the sharp high register.