Help on Ear Training

[invisiblewasp]

Hello, the context is that I am pretty new to the world of the sax and music in general.I'm wondering how folks here improve their ears (relative pitch, chord progression recognition, recognizing sharp/flat, etc). If you could point me to any of your favorite exercises or resources I would appreciate it.So far I have just been using this web app for ear training called ToneScholar (ToneScholar - The Functional Ear Training App) and it seems quite good, but is not specific to sax. In fact it's all voice-based, so probably better for singers.I'd love to be able to improve my ear while improving my skills on the sax simultaneously. I only have so much time to practice Thanks in advance!

 

[wakyct]

Thanks for the link, that one looks interesting. I've been using the Android app Functional Ear Trainer in its interval recognition mode (it's nice that you can configure the scale as movable-do or number degrees). It also has a melodic dictation mode which is an in-app purchase I think.

I also sometimes use a program called Solfege, I think there is a more UI-friendly paid software called Earmaster or something like that, it's been linked in the forum.

Another useful exercise I found here is to take a list of popular songs organized by which interval the first couple of notes start with, and then play it back by ear. Do it in a few keys to get the interval relationship dialed in. I found that list here, Beginner - Ear training - how? You don't need the list of course, but it's a little more efficient when you have limited time when you know what you're shooting for.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Being able to hear and replicate an interval, whether singing or playing an instrument is a great exercise. Giving it a name is (IMHO) translating, which depending on your way of thinking can be a benefit... or not. Some learners, (visual learners) like/need references and often visualize a note on a staff, or associate a name (Solfege) in order to play a note. If you have any auditory learning ability this is not only unnecessary, but a potential hindrance. Imagine tying to play a tune and hearing it as: Mi, Mi, So, Mi, Mi, So, Mi, So, Do, Ti, La, La, So. (the most common lullaby). You then need to translate that to notes on your instrument. Hearing the melody and replicating it directly on your instrument is where you want to be. Reading is a good skill, but without making a connection between what you hear and your instrument it's just an eye to hand pathway without your hearing what you're playing until it comes out of the instrument.

Ear training is valuable, but IMHO not an advancement unless you're making a direct connection between what you hear and what you play. You play as you would sing. There is a long history of academic teaching that (unfortunately) attempts to translate music when it's best learned and experienced directly.

 

[hedgehog]

Being able to hear and replicate an interval, whether singing or playing an instrument is a great exercise. Giving it a name is (IMHO) translating, which depending on your way of thinking can be a benefit... or not. Some learners, (visual learners) like/need references and often visualize a note on a staff, or associate a name (Solfege) in order to play a note. If you have any auditory learning ability this is not only unnecessary, but a potential hindrance. Imagine tying to play a tune and hearing it as: Mi, Mi, So, Mi, Mi, So, Mi, So, Do, Ti, La, La, So. (the most common lullaby). You then need to translate that to notes on your instrument. Hearing the melody and replicating it directly on your instrument is where you want to be. Reading is a good skill, but without making a connection between what you hear and your instrument it's just an eye to hand pathway without your hearing what you're playing until it comes out of the instrument.

Ear training is valuable, but IMHO not an advancement unless you're making a direct connection between what you hear and what you play. You play as you would sing. There is a long history of academic teaching that (unfortunately) attempts to translate music when it's best learned and experienced directly.

Interesting! It makes sense. Are there tools or practices that help one do as you say: hear and then replicate on the instrument? Sometimes I just start listening to a song and then work out the notes on the saxophone, without reading any music (I do read music). That can take an annoyingly long time. But, once I've done that, the notes are "under my fingers". So I'm looking for a skill to support the process of learning by ear.

 

[Pete Kelly]

Pick up a bass. My hearing has improved immensely since I started.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Interesting! It makes sense. Are there tools or practices that help one do as you say: hear and then replicate on the instrument? Sometimes I just start listening to a song and then work out the notes on the saxophone, without reading any music (I do read music). That can take an annoyingly long time. But, once I've done that, the notes are "under my fingers". So I'm looking for a skill to support the process of learning by ear.

To the best of my knowledge there isn't any formal program that I'd recommend. It takes a long time to make the connection "automatic" to where you can play what you have just heard (without practice or "working it out") or what's in your head (improvising). Academic methods are pretty much geared towards visual learning or translating constructs (playing changes instead of playing creatively with a unique or melodic line).

I practiced for many years trying to play along with random stations on the radio. The idea was to be playing any genre of music and preferably something you've never heard. This engages your hearing and responding without thinking about key, changes, Solfege, or any other "translations". You are directly hearing and responding. Engaging your hearing and anticipation in order to play along requires being totally present in the music and has the benefit of helping to get your ear and hands coordinating so that you (eventually) are playing what your mind hears without any form of "translation". You play as you would sing.

This can also be thought of as being "in the zone" since there are no preconceived ideas and the music flows through you without conscious thought. If playing music is always kept "conscious" by having to read, or translate, via "theory" and/or choosing cut and paste riffs and arpeggios, then the sub conscious is less likely to be engaged.

An analogy is driving. When you start every move of your feet and hands is thought about and somewhat awkward. Eventually it's like the car drives itself as your subconscious takes over. You can listen to music, have conversations, etc. without it distracting from your ability to drive (no texting please!). Music takes a bit more "presence" yet playing an instrument can eventually be the same as singing. You sing/play the note you hear in your head without any other thought. Interjecting those "translating" systems does not help an auditory learner in any way. It simply allows the novice to play at a low level of proficiency. Its the equivalent of thinking that learning how to paint can be accomplished by using "paint by the numbers".

Unfortunately there is no program I'm familiar with that imbues creativity. It can and should be encouraged, but academia has no way of teaching it. Those with talent (a word many in the music teaching business don't like), should remain cautious about letting themselves be taken down the road via a strictly academic path. Many potentially great artists and musicians have been granted scholarships and achieved a PhD. Can you name a single great artist or musician with a PhD? Did none of them have a real talent? ...Something to think about!

 

[saxyjt]

Playing by ear is my goal but I have not managed to work in that direction so far. I wish I had the kind of obsession for this I had for other topics earlier in life. But it's not too late, yet! A couple of decades left to get there if I'm lucky and work at it...

 

[mizmar]

Can you name a single great artist or musician with a PhD?

List of artists and entertainers with advanced degrees - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

HTH.

And

https://youtube.com/@drwallysax

 

[mizmar]

Playing by ear is my goal but I have not managed to work in that direction so far. I wish I had the kind of obsession for this I had for other topics earlier in life. But it's not too late, yet! A couple of decades left to get there if I'm lucky and work at it...

I'm also progressing slowly with it. But it is a part of my routine as much as anything else. Anytime I get a new tune with demo - I try to takle a chunk by ear as much for training the ears as anything.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Playing by ear is my goal but I have not managed to work in that direction so far. I wish I had the kind of obsession for this I had for other topics earlier in life. But it's not too late, yet! A couple of decades left to get there if I'm lucky and work at it...

Go for it!

 

[skeller047]

I think the only way to get good at ear based learning is to do it a lot. Repetition is mastery. Regarding courses, I am a fan of Rick Beato’s ear training stuff. Yes you have to pay for it, but it’s a good approach. Check out his YouTube channel for more information.

Having said that, and responding to Wade’s point on translating vs knowing, I do think knowing the names of things is good. Whether or not we are aware of it, when we play music we hang the sounds we make onto some kind of mental framework. Those of us formally trained in music use frameworks like scales, modes and chords. Some people rebel against that and scoff at “music theory”. But in reality everyone needs a framework, because if you want to ”play by ear”, you at least ought to have some intentions about which notes you are going to play, and that means having some kind of internal framework (and a good memory) so you make an artistically pleasing choice.

So listening to a major second, playing a major second and calling it a major second in your mind is not just translating, any more than saying “apple” while eating or touching a red fruit is translating. It’s naming it. Thus giving you a handle to think about it, to recognize it when you hear it, and to discuss it with others.

Symbolic representations of things are a powerful way we humans use to ponder various things. When I hear a major second, I know what it is, I know its name, and I have an emotional response to it, all at once. When I play a major second I do so because I know what that sound is, and I want it at that time. But I can also hear it in my mind, without actually playing or hearing it - and I still know it’s called a major second. That isn’t translating, that’s experience, and knowing its name does not detract from that experience in any way. And it would be exactly the same if I called it “Fred”.

 

[Wade Cornell]

I'm not going to argue with Skeller as he's 100% right about being able to name and recognize as many aspects of music as possible in order to communicate with others. Knowledge is always good. However one doesn't need to know the name of any note or chord in order to hear it or play it. I read music and studied theory (more general than "jazz theory") and have been involved in music my whole life (now 77). If one simply wishes to recognize/name, chords/intervals, then there are many programs/studies. if one wishes to play by ear, then it takes a lot of time/work to sync your playing to what you would otherwise sing. Knowing or discussing what you've played or wish to play is useful for communicating with fellow musicians. However if you have just heard a melodic line that you've never heard before and in that moment want/need to repeat it, play a response, harmony or counterpoint, or improvise off of it, then there is no time/room for analysis. You need to be able to play what works in that moment as you would sing. It's only practice towards that goal that will accomplish that, not academic studies.

Once again agreeing with Skeller as he's 100% right about developing an ear so that you can use sophisticated lines and harmonies, but this isn't limited to Western music or jazz. There is a whole world of ethnic music that has logic, modes, rhythms, and melodic conventions that are unique to those cultures. Some post 1960s jazz artists successfully explored some of these, and they are even more accessible today. If you are able to play what you hear, then expanding your taste and references means that whatever is in your mental library can be utilized/accessed, and even more importantly you are not limited by any of it.... You can be creative!

IMHO the key to playing by ear is to NOT put yourself in a box where specific (practiced) patterns wind up dictating how you play. But, if you have a specific genre/style and just want to hang out there in perpituity that's OK. Know yourslef and define your goals. Most importantly enjoy the journey!

 

[lydian]

I think there's a difference between learning to play by ear and ear training. I can transcribe an entire solo without ever touching an instrument. So my ear training enables me to do that regardless of whether I can play by ear or not. But they do affect each other greatly. If you are good at recognizing intervals, it makes playing by ear much easier.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Then there's tritones and tetrads. Some being easier than simple intervals.

Searching for the right note in a melody, when playing by ear, by dipping into a tritone, can be less intrusive if you hit the wrong note.

Although it can lead you down the garden path and astray.

 

[skeller047]

Thanks Wade. You’ve got years on me, I’m only 75…

I want to re-emphasize the point that practice and repetition are key. Like Lydian, I transcribe stuff not only by playing along, but also just writing it down. Or just remembering it…. I can do this because I have been doing this ever since I started playing.

Yes I was trained to read, in grade school, and I read music well, but I learned to play jazz by playing along with the radio and records. Yes, I went to college and studied theory and composition, but I also spent many many hours listening to records, copping licks and immersing myself in feeling. It is this last activity that has paid the most dividends.

So pull up a tune in your phone or computer, or put a CD or record on, stick a horn in your mouth and start imitating. There is no better way to train your ear. It takes time and patience, but it works.