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M/Pieces - Ligs Will a Tenor PPT 8* help?

DavidUK

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For alto I bought a resin PPT 6** many years ago after trying all sorts. Staying with it.

For occasional tenor I have Windcraft Etude, Student, Selmer Soloist F, none of which worked with my brand new Jericho II tenor horn. I picked up a Yamaha 6C which gives a pleasant tone, but nothing super malleable as with the PPT alto piece.

I play tenor rarely, but wondered if a PPT 8* would be roughly equivalent to my alto 6** (same as the current 7* now I seem to recall?).

Anyone playing a PPT tenor resin 8* who could help me decide? No rush...
 

Dr G

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What is the PPT 8* in terms of real numbers? If those relate to Otto Link values, that is a pretty large tip opening for an "occasional" tenor player. Why not a 6*? What do you hope to get from your mouthpiece?
 

DavidUK

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Looking for a mellow, slightly raspy, jazz sound. I find the alto PPT very versatile but too wide a tip could just put me off tenor even more!

From: PPT Tenor Mouthpieces

"The 8* (117) is very slightly brighter and very smooth but still with lots of mellow “body” – I find it works exceptionally well for funk, smooth jazz and pop, but still very versatile. Note the tip is very slightly wider than a normal 8*, but is no harder to play. Probably a bit easier if anything."

So, if "117" is the opening in thousands of an inch that equates to 2.97mm.
The Yam 6C is 75 thou or 1.9mm.
They're miles apart! I'm going to struggle I think.

It's used, as new, so I could buy, try, and sell-on if no good.
 

jonf

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"none of which worked with my brand new Jericho II tenor"

What do you mean by this?

As you say, the Yamaha and the PPT8* are miles apart, and the Soloist is also a narrow tip opening as well, at 0.90/2.23mm. Bear in mind, the shape of the facing curve also affects playability - not all open mouthoieces are hard to play, and I think this was one of the design philosophes of the PPT.

If you do decide to try it, the last thing you want to do is be macho and think about playing a medium to hard reed on an open mouthpiece. Personally I've used wide open mouthpieces with RJS 2S or 2M reeds for decades. You might find it takes a week or two to get used to it. If you go for it, my advice would be to play tenor, using it every day, for a fortnight, even if just for 20 minutes or so, before taking a final decision.

For the last few years I've played a Rico Select Jazz tenor piece, and, although I still have a few other tenor pieces, it's the only one I play. Mine's a 9, but you can get them in narrower tip openings as well. I like it, you might hate it. If you only play tenor occasionally you might be better trying something mid sized. Personally I hate very narrow tip openings, particularly on tenor, and I think something around the 0.105/2.67mm size to be a good compromise for tenor.
 

DavidUK

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As you may recall Jon, I've had various tenor horns over the years, the Grassi, Yam 62, 32, a rather good Carmichael (who knew?), TJ SR (awful, or was it me?), etc. Most played well with the Soloist or Etude and RJS 2S or 2M.
Then the last tenor (Grassi) went a few years back and I stuck to alto.

I just had to buy the last ever Jericho tenor as I like their alto, but returning to tenor I got warbling on E & D with all my MPs. Asked Rich at D'Addario and he said try La Voz MS which worked well with the newly arrived Yam 6C. So the warbling went, but I still tend to pick up the alto as I'm proficient at it and the tenor's hard going.

I recall finding the alto PPT the panacea of alto MPs for me and stopped (vaguely) looking for an upgrade (not so with horns!). I've never been a MP researcher, just tried those which came with the horns I bought, all sorts really, including a Very Vintage Duckbill Berg which even Theo Wanne had never seen before (again, an awful racket in my hands/mouth!).

So whereas I know a great deal about horns I'm a novice with MPs. I was just thinking that having been so lucky with the PPT alto, the tenor might magically work too?
 

Dr G

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David, there are a few red flags in your post that stand out in the context of your tenor woes. I'll try to connect the dots for your review.
As you may recall Jon, I've had various tenor horns over the years, the Grassi, Yam 62, 32, a rather good Carmichael (who knew?), TJ SR (awful, or was it me?), etc. Most played well with the Soloist or Etude and RJS 2S or 2M.

The Soloist mouthpiece has a fairly close tip and long lay - played with either an RJS 2S/2M, that is a fairly soft setup.

Then the last tenor (Grassi) went a few years back and I stuck to alto.

I just had to buy the last ever Jericho tenor as I like their alto, but returning to tenor I got warbling on E & D with all my MPs. Asked Rich at D'Addario and he said try La Voz MS which worked well with the newly arrived Yam 6C. So the warbling went, but I still tend to pick up the alto as I'm proficient at it and the tenor's hard going.

If all your mouthpieces warble on the same notes, it makes me wonder whether you have mechanical issues (leak(s) or timing). If the warbling went but the tenor remains "hard going", that indicates that a leak persists and that the 6C allows you to play through the leaks. Horns in general will seem stuffy or resistant when they have leaks.

I recall finding the alto PPT the panacea of alto MPs for me and stopped (vaguely) looking for an upgrade (not so with horns!). I've never been a MP researcher, just tried those which came with the horns I bought, all sorts really, including a Very Vintage Duckbill Berg which even Theo Wanne had never seen before (again, an awful racket in my hands/mouth!).

So whereas I know a great deal about horns I'm a novice with MPs. I was just thinking that having been so lucky with the PPT alto, the tenor might magically work too?

Please don't rely on magical thinking to dial in your tenor. Get it checked for leaks and adjustment, then make the effort to get a mouthpiece that plays well. As a lifelong tenor player (50+ years on tenor), it hurts me to see that your tenor is disappointing you, but not getting a fair shake. While I cannot guarantee that you will ever fall in love with your tenor, I am confident that you will enjoy it much more once in good fettle.

P.S. A mouthpiece purchase is only a good deal if it actually fills your needs. I don't recommend riding the mouthpiece roller coaster. Get a good mouthpiece (good for YOU) and commit to it for at least a year before considering your next one. After a year, you'll know what you are/aren't getting from it, or you'll know better that you don't need another.
 

DavidUK

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I guess the sax may have suffered in transit. It's a good point that I never had an issue with others, once fettled. Perhaps I'm relying too much on Jericho telling me it had been set up by a well known tech and forgetting it had also been in storage a while after. I'll take it to my trusted tech, Paul Carrington, and ask him to do a fresh set up. Then re-try my current MPs and take it from there.
 

turf3

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Well, I don't know what a "Jericho II" sax is, but I'm guessing it's a typical Far East horn, in other words a Selmer Super Action 80 copy. There's no way a Selmer Soloist F wouldn't work superbly on a Selmer copy sax in good operating condition. The other mouthpiece you mention that I've ever heard of is the Yamaha 6C which also ought to play superbly on a Selmer copy saxophone in good operating condition

You haven't described what constitutes "not working on my tenor sax". So I don't know what to recommend. The above two mouthpieces should play smoothly and easily from low Bb to high F#, well in tune, on pretty much any tenor sax ever made since the 1920s, if not even earlier.
 

Colin the Bear

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First of all...Tenor isn't a big alto. The stuff you can get away with on alto isn't possible on tenor. It's a completely different animal.
I added baritone to alto and clarinet easily and thought tenor would be the same. Nope. Took me ages.
Your ears and fingers may be locked into Eb.
Tenor plays much lower on the embouchure and has a more versatile sound pallette.
I'd stick with the yam 6c till you get your tenor chops sorted. You need to play it every day. It will play fine with the right reed.
Warbling can be as simple as mouthpiece position or a small leak or as complicated as a volume mismatch. I can't see it being a mismatch with a jericho.
An 8* sounds massive to me but I don't know how they measure.
A selmer f on tenor would be too big for me.
My go to piece has always been a Selmer S80. I'm still playing a C* on baritone.
G on soprano. Currently playing E on alto.
My tenor is set up for parade band at present. No flash solos, lots of volume and low end blending.
 

DavidUK

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Thanks Colin. I'll take my leak light to it before heading to the tech. Moved house since I last saw you so, once again, this hobby has to take a back seat to getting the new house how we want it and... er... work!

But now I have my own studio on the 2nd floor so at least I can play with my toys undisturbed.
 

Pete Effamy

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Looking for a mellow, slightly raspy, jazz sound. I find the alto PPT very versatile but too wide a tip could just put me off tenor even more!

From: PPT Tenor Mouthpieces

"The 8* (117) is very slightly brighter and very smooth but still with lots of mellow “body” – I find it works exceptionally well for funk, smooth jazz and pop, but still very versatile. Note the tip is very slightly wider than a normal 8*, but is no harder to play. Probably a bit easier if anything."

So, if "117" is the opening in thousands of an inch that equates to 2.97mm.
The Yam 6C is 75 thou or 1.9mm.
They're miles apart! I'm going to struggle I think.

It's used, as new, so I could buy, try, and sell-on if no good.
Don’t forget that bore size/shape/baffle will negate overall tip size - especially in comparison with another mouthpiece tip.
 

DavidUK

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Thanks Pete, but I think I'm just in GAS mode. If my Etude and Selmer MPs have played well on all other tenors then it must be the horn itself. The 6C is probably just more accommodating. Or... it's as Colin said - using an alto embouchure on a tenor when I know I should relax far more. This advice on the other thread helped too so perhaps I first tried this with the 6C.

Becky at Jericho had confirmed this one had been "tickled" by a very well regarded tech and it arrived well packed and double boxed so it's perhaps my bad for assuming that from tech to Becky, then sitting around at hers, then being shipped to me, it hadn't had a key knocked slightly.

I'll persevere...
 

Pete Effamy

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Thanks Pete, but I think I'm just in GAS mode. If my Etude and Selmer MPs have played well on all other tenors then it must be the horn itself. The 6C is probably just more accommodating. Or... it's as Colin said - using an alto embouchure on a tenor when I know I should relax far more. This advice on the other thread helped too so perhaps I first tried this with the 6C.

Becky at Jericho had confirmed this one had been "tickled" by a very well regarded tech and it arrived well packed and double boxed so it's perhaps my bad for assuming that from tech to Becky, then sitting around at hers, then being shipped to me, it hadn't had a key knocked slightly.

I'll persevere...
My experience of Jericho when I was involved was that they were on the bright side - great for me as I naturally have a round sound.
 

Pete Thomas

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What is the PPT 8* in terms of real numbers? If those relate to Otto Link values, that is a pretty large tip opening for an "occasional" tenor player. Why not a 6*?
A 6* tenor PPT would be very bright as iot is a high baffle mouthpiece, I always think those work best in large tips - you can always put a softer reed on.

I never equate what I use on alto with tenor. On tenor I use a 9* on alto a 5 or 5*

"The 8* (117) is very slightly brighter and very smooth but still with lots of mellow “body” – I find it works exceptionally well for funk, smooth jazz and pop, but still very versatile. Note the tip is very slightly wider than a normal 8*, but is no harder to play. Probably a bit easier if anything."

So, if "117" is the opening in thousands of an inch that equates to 2.97mm.
The Yam 6C is 75 thou or 1.9mm.
They're miles apart! I'm going to struggle I think.

But you are comparing tenor opening to alto opening, it would be different even with the same number.

When it comes down to resistance or "easy blowing" then the tip opening is really only half the equation. With the facing curve dimensions it can be fairly meningless.
 

Pete Thomas

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Sorry my mistake. But I’d still find such a comparison less than relevant unless the facing curve is the same. And chamber
 

Dr G

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A 6* tenor PPT would be very bright as iot is a high baffle mouthpiece, I always think those work best in large tips - you can always put a softer reed on.

I never equate what I use on alto with tenor. On tenor I use a 9* on alto a 5 or 5*

Thanks, Pete. I agree that a high baffle piece is typically better in a larger tip. That said, I would not recommend a large tip, high baffle mouthpiece for an occasional tenor player.
 

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