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Which should I revise... Selmer or Jupiter?

DavidUK

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I have these two cheapies, a Selmer London "Karl Meyer" tenor and a Jupiter 767 alto...

The Selmer:
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20220718_164636.jpg


The Jupiter:
20220718_164902.jpg

20220718_164504.jpg


I want to use one to experiment cutting away parts of key cups unnecessary for my new padding system. This would mainly be to see if the key work could be usefully lightened in weight, but also for a cosmetic difference to a standard horn. The current pads would be replaced.

Which should die?

The Selmer has clean new looking pads but loads of leaks (poorly fitted). It has a speckled patina. It's an Orsi and may not play very well even in good order. It would perhaps be the most expendable to test weight loss and cup "design." It's vintage and rarer than the Jupiter. It's pads need sorting anyway so why not replace them.

The Jupiter's pads are OK and it plays well. It's given me a standard alto to test against my identical prototype horn with my patent pending pads installed. Once comparisons are finished it is expendable. It has a ratty patina. The 767 may play better than the Selmer when re-padded. I have all the pad measurements for the Jupiter already, to make them up.

I'm edging toward the tenor but I'm also part way through a Beaugnier tenor too which needs a load of needle springs (a new task for me) and that's putting me off it!

Just thinking out loud really...
:confused2:
 

PigSquealer

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Given the choices I would use a alto before a tenor.
My Roman vote Orsi (Smellmore)
1658168285708.png
 

mizmar

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I thought the Roman tradition was to keep the one which satisfies your wife best when you're out on campaigns. So yeah spare the Tenor :thumb:
 
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PigSquealer

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I thought the Roman tradition was to keep the one wich satisfies your wife best when you're out in campaigns. So yeah spare the Tenor :thumb:
In my defense this Scott knows little to nothing about Rome:confused2:
 
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If you need to get replacement keys there a chance of getting ones for the Jupiter. Not so much for an older horn.

Please don't butcher saxophones. We've had all this with Top Tone.
 

DavidUK

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If you need to get replacement keys there a chance of getting ones for the Jupiter. Not so much for an older horn.

Please don't butcher saxophones. We've had all this with Top Tone.
Did Toptone butcher horns to create the ones they sold? I had always thought they created them from scratch. Which make/model did they use as a base?

My pads are designed to retro-fit to any age horn with no modification to the key cups, so owners know they could revert to traditional pads, like car owners reverted to wooden or metal tyres after rubber ones were invented.

This further experiment is just customisation. Same as some classic car owners like to butcher their cars in the quest for individualism.
 
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Toptone did both. Had new horns made and they offered to convert older ones. When they closed down there was supposedly a pile of chopped MkVIs and Conn 10Ms etc that went to scrap.
The fact that these pads can be fitted to ordinary keycups means there is no need to chop them down.

Most classic car owners like things to be as original as possible. I think if you make changes it's good if they are reversible. I come across a lot of older horns that had the extra Eb which has been removed or soldered up. The more it's changed the harder it becomes to restore. With cars, parts are far more readily available. There are places where you can get replacements for different models. With instruments it's down to a handful of people that are capable of reproducing parts by hand.

In the case of Jupiters you can usually get replacements, so it makes it more feasible to restore. They tend to relatively cheap horns so no real damage done. Anything older and you're not going to find replacement parts very easily. A set of keys for a MkVI will set you back over £1000 plus VAT & import duty. And it'll probably need them modifying to fit. And you can't get a full set. IIRC

It's your horn, your money, your choice. But, for me it seems a shame to create damage for the sake of a look.
 

stitch

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A set of keys for a MkVI will set you back over £1000 plus VAT & import duty. And it'll probably need them modifying to fit. And you can't get a full set. IIRC
o_O I think I have a couple of full tenor sets kicking around somewhere; maybe I should book a holiday ...
 

stitch

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Having been sidetracked, to return to @DavidUK 's question: the Karl Meyer.
While you might be happy with the results having A - B'ed the Jupiters, it's entirely possible that others might want to try as well, so best to keep differences between them to a minimum.
 

DavidUK

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@Steve Marshall - I agree the 'normal' classic car owner will want to keep it original. Even full restorations are now frowned upon by many whereas it used to be the 'thing' to have a concours ex-factory look. I prefer an original patina so long as parts aren't rusting away or dropping off but then I also like the hot-rod scene, having owned a flamed metal flake 1971 Capri back in the day and built a '32 Ford roadster with Chevy engine, Jag IRS, fat rear wheels, etc (actually no Fords were hurt. The Capri was just painted, the '32 was fibreglass).

When it came to my pads I thought right from the start of the reticent MkVI owner, or indeed anyone who likes their horn, plus how resale value may be affected.
This last point is important. You pay for my pads (I don't mean Pisoni), like them (or not) and later decide to sell the horn. "Hmmm.... would I get more if I switched back to traditional wooden wheels pads? Another re-pad! Darn it!!"
At present with just two horns padded with my new pads, my Jupiter and your MkVI, you'd have to switch back to old style pads. But when the new pads have taken off and 51% of the world is using them you'd be better off keeping my ones in.
Then after a few years someone with a MkVI which still has traditional leather pads in it will be the one to struggle to sell it as a buyer will have to factor into the price a set of my new pads (he said over-confidently, bordering on big headed-ness).

@stitch - very valid point and perhaps the clincher. Not only may others want to A-B the new and old systems, I may need to go back to the drawing board at some point to check, amend, or improve the design.

I had a vague thought about having a whole array of un-mutilated horns, old and new, padded with my system so prospective buyers can see they work with any age horn.
This is both buyers at my NAMM 2023 stand and at my new shop/workshop...
...Oops, I've drifted off into a dreamworld all of my own...
;)
 

DavidUK

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Imagine a hot-rod fitted with twin tenor side-pipe exhausts...

...I shall order one immediately as the centrepiece for my stand at NAMM...

On start-up the car plays Take Five...
 
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