When was frequency invented?

[aldevis]

Achilles and the Tortoise:
in Zeno's times there was probaly no manageable concept of "time frame" to describe speed. Hence the Achilles & tortoise paradox.

Even Pythagorean music theory was affected by this. You could talk about length and material of vibrating strings, but no cycles/time
About 2,000 years before frequency could enter the plot?
Does it make sense?

 

[Pete Thomas]

So back in those days they had harps and whatever it was that Nero was fiddling on.

They knew a longer string was a lower note or a lower hole in a flute was a lower note but did they know why?

Hmmm…

 

[aldevis]

So back in those days they had harps and whatever it was that Nero was fiddling on.

Like blues harp, or Harpo Marx, that invented the turtle after the tortoise lost a day at the races.
I see...

 

[aldevis]

(did we just set a record for off-topic comments?)

 

[Pete Thomas]

(did we just set a record for off-topic comments?)

Maybe but depending on how we measured the speed of the off topic comments vs the frequency. See what I did there?

 

[mizmar]

"invented"?
That's a philosophically challenging was of viewing reality

 

[Pete Thomas]

"invented"?
That's a philosophically challenging was of viewing reality

Yes, like we all know that Newton invented gravity.

 

[aldevis]

"invented"?
That's a philosophically challenging was of viewing reality

Yes, like we all know that Newton invented gravity.

Indeed: humanity invented concepts to describe reality.
"Time" and "gravity" are not inherently existing. Phenomena that we describe with time and gravity do (maybe)

 

[lydian]

This says Boethius knew about frequency in the 6th century, and Galileo worked out the details in the 16th century, followed by Mersenne.

Acoustics - Early Experimentation

Acoustics - Early Experimentation: The origin of the science of acoustics is generally attributed to the Greek philosopher Pythagoras (6th century bc), whose experiments on the properties of vibrating strings that produce pleasing musical intervals were of such merit that they led to a tuning...

www.britannica.com

 

[aldevis]

Indeed: humanity invented concepts to describe reality.
"Time" and "gravity" are not inherently existing. Phenomena that we describe with time and gravity do (maybe)

To put it differently:
"when was sound invented" would not make sense
"when did Hertz invented Hz to describe sound" would

 

[aldevis]

This says Boethius knew about frequency in the 6th century, and Galileo worked out the details in the 16th century, followed by Mersenne.

Acoustics - Early Experimentation

Acoustics - Early Experimentation: The origin of the science of acoustics is generally attributed to the Greek philosopher Pythagoras (6th century bc), whose experiments on the properties of vibrating strings that produce pleasing musical intervals were of such merit that they led to a tuning...

www.britannica.com

Not sure that Boetius he would use time in the equation
It stroke me thinking of Galileus bored in a church using his heartbeat to measure time.
His father war a subtle music theorist, though

 

[mizmar]

Indeed: humanity invented concepts to describe reality.
"Time" and "gravity" are not inherently existing. Phenomena that we describe with time and gravity do (maybe)

I'm not sure. A gravitational waves arrives here, that - as far as anyone understands - started life before humans existed. That, right there, is time, space and gravity intrinsically existing. No need to wait for us to describe it before black holes can collide

 

[aldevis]

I'm not sure. A gravitational waves arrives here, that - as far as anyone understands - started life before humans existed. That, right there, is time, space and gravity intrinsically existing. No need to wait for us to describe it before black holes can collide

This is a very typical example.
Galileus Galilei (the son of the chap that designed guitar frets) describes gravity of object falling in Bologna (where they have great food)
A pretty simple acceleration function
Then Newton expands the concept to planets and comes up with a more complex equation.

Galileus's therory is included in Newton's but it's not wrong. It's just applied to a specific context (planet earth)
Gravity is the same, the two theories are just two different human ways to describe it

(Galileus was cheating too, but that's another story)

 

[mizmar]

Gravity is the same, the two theories are just two different human ways to describe it

Well. yes. Humans have improved their description of gravity. Not invented gravity. Described.

Contrast. If a mars explorer found a saxophone, that would be weird.

 

[aldevis]

Well. yes. Humans have improved their description of gravity. Not invented gravity. Described.

Contrast. If a mars explorer found a saxophone, that would be weird.

So frequency is a human concept that put puts vibration in relation with time.
Non the invention of sound.

I re-phrase my question: when did humans developed a definition of time good enough to describe sound in terms of frequency (cycles/time)?

 

[aldevis]

Contrast. If a mars explorer found a saxophone, that would be weird.

And it would sound out of tune on mars, but martians don't care, since they don't hear intervals (as described by Ray Bradbury)

 

[mizmar]

So frequency is a human concept that put puts vibration in relation with time.
Non the invention of sound.

I re-phrase my question: when did humans developed a definition of time good enough to describe sound in terms of frequency (cycles/time)?

Fair enough. Newton and / or Leibniz invented calculus to describe gravity better. Einstein used advanced maths to describe gravity even better...

So, yeah, sure, we invent techniques to describe

 

[aldevis]

Fair enough. Newton and / or Leibniz invented calculus to describe gravity better. Einstein used advanced maths to describe gravity even better...

So, yeah, sure, we invent techniques to describe

OK, Leibnitz and Newton would be very proud of you.

Hertz defined the Hz one century after the Well Tempered Klavier (that comes 2,000 years after Pythagoras)

But can you give a useful answer about time?
The earliest that I can think of if Galileus (son) using his heartbeat.
I am interested about the definition of frequency, not the existence of sound. I am pretty confident that
sound did exist before anyone could hear it

 

[jbtsax]

Humankind early on became aware of the concept of pitch of certain sounds and developed the ability to recreate and organize pitches in ways that produced pleasing or useful sounds. None of this development required the understanding of frequency or vibrations per second which came about much later, once smaller units of the passage of time could be accurately measured.

 

[nigeld]

The Roman scholar Boethius (477-524AD) described the vibration of a string in terms of beats, and used the word “frequens”. He knew that a higher frequency of beats resulted in a higher pitched note.

Correspondence

(1995). Correspondence. Annals of Science: Vol. 52, No. 3, pp. 303-305.

www.tandfonline.com