What's wrong with white pads anyhow?

DavidUK

Well-Known Member
Café Supporter
A few weeks back I played someone's 1920's Buffet Evette & Schaeffer Alto. Picked it up not expecting much as it emerged from a battered case, but it was in absolutely mint condition. The white pads put me off, as they were obviously original. Put my PPT on it and expected to get nothing...

...instead, it blew perfectly from top to bottom!!

I guess the only things wrong with white pads are:
1/ Usually worn out.
2/ Can't get them any more.
3/ No reflectors.
4/ Better modern alternatives.

Or... are they some kind of ancient gem?

Maybe @jbtsax can shed some light?
 
Plenty of white pads on ebay. I just bought a sop set because it had some of the sizes I needed for alto. Strangely the alto set didn't have the right sizes and the sop white ones did. They do black, orange, pink, green and brown and a selection of resonators in various materials and colours. I may end up with a very kitsch alto.
 
The original vintage white pads looked to have a "texture" on them, like the back of a leather belt. Was this considered better for sealing than a smooth finish?

I really liked the sound of this horn. Not sure if it was LP or HP but it just sounded wonderful. Well of course it did... it is a Buffet after all!
 
Some techs/guys says there are "noisy". i've have re-pad with both black and white pads. Seems to be ok. But after some years maybe ....???

I used white pads on my Kohlert 1927 soprano. I install the pads with the original washer and screw. Insted of shellack I used clear "silicone glue" to fill up the key cups. To reduce the "noise"!?!?!?! The old pad with washer and the screw in the keycup.

kohlert1927002.jpg
 
A Kohlert soprano made in 1927? Serial # 215XXX. No double octave system. Keyed to from low Bb to high F. This soprano is nearly as good as my Buescher TT, model LP-122, from 1928.
kohlert1927001.jpg

kohlertjuni2010005.jpg


This Kohlert soprano was a modern construction in 1927. No doubt that Kohlert was the leading saxophone manufactor in Europe in the late 20's. I think they made saxes from sopraninos to contrabasses. Even C saxes but no F saxes. Ii's playing well with a Selmer (classic ) metal D chamber mpc. First I used the Kohlert without octavekey (I sealed the octave pipes) beacause the low octave key was missing. A guy helped me to make a new one. So it's back with the octave key system in order. This sax is nickelplated. Pictures are taken before renovation.

I think Buffet later used the same pad construction as Kohlert. DA model? If remember right a saw a video clip from a saxtech showing a Buffet with simular pad system. Silcone glue (for bathrooms) are IMO better than paper. A string of silcone along with the keycup rim (the bigger keycups) prevent moisture to "crawl under" the pads. The screw and washer keeps the pads in place. And they are also keeping the pads flat.
 
That top photo, right hand pad, is how two of them look on the now purchased Buffet (see: http://cafesaxophone.com/threads/another-buffet-couldnt-resist.15673/page-2#post-210077) .

I had thoughts of finding a clever way of repairing them, with leather repair filler, glue, whatever... but of course once damaged they'll continue to fall to bits, being so old. So, with 5 damaged pads I have the following choices:
1/ Get them replaced professionally. Goes against the grain of having a "wall hanger which plays" and would likely triple the purchase cost of £50.
2/ Replace the damaged ones myself. It would be good to try pad replacement. The only DIY repair job I haven't had a go at, apart from dent removal. Would need to find a plain pads, no rivet, to do this.
3/ Replace ALL the pads. This would cost £300-400 by a repairer so that's not going to happen. Changing them all myself brings far more problems than replacing two, maybe five, individual pads so option 2 has to be the right choice at present. I appreciate more may fail over time.

The three "unholed" pads had the leather coming away from the cup at the edge so I have glued the gaps and held the leather in position against the cup edge until the glue sets. This doesn't affect the pad seating area, so should work, but these pads will be the first to let go again. All pads have now been treated with leather conditioner and none were or are now at all hard. In fact they were all very clean to start with. Good quality leather in 1922 I guess!

So, I need to find two plain white or brown pads of the correct size and thickness, no rivet or reflector, and a way of sticking them in (I have Steve Howard's book). Shellac seems more alien to me than hot glue, but then I have to find the correct hot glue. I'm aware Shellac is better for floating pads but I'm unlikely to perfect this technique with two pads!

I was reading last night that a soldering iron (someone used a clothes iron!) held against the key cup can be a way of heating it sufficiently to soften the glue, in the same way a Votaw cup heater works I guess, only not as precise temperature-wise. (See: http://www.votawtool.com/tools/general-shop-tools/torches-amp-heating-tools/pad-cup-heater.html)

I have both blow torch and mini torch (for creme brûlée) but I know I'll burn myself.

I see some folks (and techs, @griff136 ) have used blutack as a temporary fix. This is what's really needed isn't it - something that's hand-heat malleable, stays soft for a while so you can position the pad, then goes hard once cooled, but can be easily removed. Ideal! So what's wrong with blutack as a permanent repair? I guess it's not reliably sticky enough?

As a next move, I'll take the two holed pads/keys to Charlie Connolly and see if he has some suitable pads he can let me have. He'll offer to do it naturally, but with that will come other offshoots of work required which isn't what I want for this horn. It's going to be more of a test-bed I think. A bit like the Russian tenor I bought a few years back, but worth keeping, displaying, and occasionally playing.

Work in progress...
 
Most soldering irons do not generate enough BTU's to be effective in heating pad cups. The Votaw Pad Cup Heater works on a different principal in which the metal key conducts electricity passed between the two jaws of the tool. It creates a lot of heat quickly like the burner on an electric stove. You can make a "Poor Man's" pad cup heater by buying a used Weller soldering gun and cutting the tip leaving two exposed prongs. It is important to contact the key before pulling the trigger and to release the trigger before pulling the prongs away. If you don't do this, the electricity will "arc" and leave a mark on the key. (Don't ask me how I know this.)
 
These look better, size-wise: http://musicmedic.com/mainpads/saxo...ophone-pads-no-resonator-individual-pads.html
About a tenner shipped from the USA for the five I need.
Or I could double that and go for white Roo pads: http://musicmedic.com/mainpads/saxo...com-roopads-no-resonator-individual-pads.html
If the latter, I'd probably replace the existing brown ones while I'm at it, to give me white pads all over.
The no resonator pads are intended for the tech who installs his/her own resos and come with a hole in the middle. You may be able to order a solid pad, but it may be a special order and cost more. There is nothing wrong with the ones with a rivet in the center. They actually keep the leather more firm than pads without anything in the center. The white roos are .165" thick. I would suggest measuring one of the pads you are replacing with calipers to see if that is a good match. Some saxes with very shallow keycups take an even thinner pad.
 
Id've thought that holding the key a few inches above a hot electric cooker ring should be enough to soften the shellac and get the old pads out. The melting point of shellac is about 90C
 
Cooker ring will heat things too much. A butane torch is favourite.

N.B. Before getting the torch near the sax set the flame to gas only NO air. This stops the silver from oxidising. Use a very low flame, either with the torch on it's back in a stand, or hold the sax in one hand and the sax in the other. Keep the flame away from corks, felts and adjacent pads... And in any case, protect them by wrapping in tin foil.

Blue tack won't work as it doesn't set, so the pads will keep moving.
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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