Reeds What's happening when my reed starts squeaking?

[Midgiemo]

hello everyone

Just to set this in context, I've been an indifferent intermediate player of alto/tenor for a few years until I was inspired to take my playing up a level 6 months ago. Since then I have been, not 4 hours a day , but regularly doing proper practice, thanks to 'Taming the Sax' books and studies etc. I AM beginning to feel more in control of my instrument instead of the other way round.

As a little incentive to myself I also treated myself to a PPT(8) mouthpiece for my Yani tenor, knowing and accepting that it was going to take a while to get used to it.I always do the long notes, scales and patterns on the PPT figuring that it would improve my embouchure and get me used to it. I started with lighter reeds and chose Alexander french cut reeds because I'd previously found they worked with my metal bari mouthpiece when nothing else did.....and I like the cute wee tin they come in!! I soak unplayed ones for a couple of hours before I play them, but within 20-30 mins of playing they start squeaking and squawking or close up completely. When this happened with the 2s I went up to 21/2s which are only marginally better.

With the original Yani mouthpiece(6) I'm happy with Rico Jazz 3S or 2H.

Can anyone explain just what's happening here with the PPT/Alexander Superial reed combo? I have just read an older thread that suggested that some combos just don't work. Any suggestions then for reeds that may perform better with a PPT.
2 steps forward one step back

Mo

 

[Ivan]

Hi @Midgiemo

The PPT is a superb mouthpiece and there's nothing wrong with Alexander reeds so it's unlikely to be a hardware problem

I used to squeak; it doesn't happen now, but I don't know exactly why. What has changed, though, is my embouchure has matured, I take care to align the reed perfectly with the mouthpiece and I think about opening the throat and tongue position

Experimenting with those elements could be fruitful

 

[jbtsax]

When reeds are immersed in water that long they become "waterlogged". The fibers swell and the reed becomes "tubby" or unresponsive. I soak my reed in a prescription bottle half filled with water or in my mouth for no more than 30 seconds. I like to then put it in a "Reed Guard" to help flatten the tip while I assemble the instrument. By the time I am finished the reed is ready to go.

Squeaks are caused when only one side of the reed vibrates freely and the other does not. This is not uncommon when a player goes from a "safe" mouthpiece with thick side rails to one that has thin side rails. The one with thick side rails is more forgiving when uneven embouchure pressure is used. The thin side rails are more demanding, but produce better response and sound.

• Make sure the reed is on perfectly straight
• Rest when the embouchure tires to prevent "biting"---think of opening the teeth
  
• If the front top teeth are uneven, try using a thick mouthpiece patch
• Check your reeds to see that the sides are equal, and that both sides of the tip look the same.

 

[Tiberius]

Regularly doing 'proper' practice? Do you have a teacher whos helping guide this practice? I suspect your emouchure may be at fault and as your mouth tires then you lose control.

I used to squeak a lot, I was way too tight, even biting. Ask your teacher what he thinks of your embochure, tbh I doubt it's something you can solve easily yourself.

 

[kevgermany]

The PPT squeaks when your embouchure is poor. It's like a formula 1 car compared to the others. I use the Rico's/D'Addarios usually 2H.

Secrets:

Firstly a lig that fits properly, many are tight towards the sax and loose towards the mouthpiece tip. If this is happening, use a rubber wedge or card to pack it out until you get one that fits. The Marc Jean is made to measure.

Secondly when you play concentrate on pulling in the side of your mouth/lips. Keep them tight. But don't overtighten in the middle.

These two, combined with the accurate alignment mentioned above will sort out your squeaking.

 

[Nick Wyver]

When reeds are immersed in water that long they become "waterlogged". The fibers swell and the reed becomes "tubby" or unresponsive.

My reeds are permanently soaked. They work fine for me.

 

[jbtsax]

My reeds are permanently soaked. They work fine for me.

Interesting. Are they permanently immersed in water, or are they just kept damp in an airtight container that prevents them from drying out? My experience comes from starting to soak 4 or 5 new reeds, and then getting distracted and coming back after leaving them in the water for about 2 hours. All of the reeds had turned a dark gold color and when played were "tubby" and unresponsive. I let them dry out a bit and came back and tried them again. They all played much better than before.

 

[Colin the Bear]

When doubling, with 5 instruments, I take reeds, in their holders, floating in a watertight container. Assembling at the venue, I find the reeds don't dry out, sitting on the stand and are moist and ready to go. Before I started doing this, I used to have problems with squeaks and squawks from dry reeds.

Imo an 8 tip opening is quite wide and will take some time to adapt to.

As well as varying the strength of the reed it may be beneficial to try a different cut.

A regular or american cut may interface better between mouthpiece and embouchure than a french cut.

I've had some success with GonzalezRC which by the way taste great. South American cane. Useful for loud playing with less effort I find.

All the different coloured packets that Vandoren do have a slightly different cut in French and Regular and are worth trying to see what works.

Rico Reserve come in a french cut and are cut from a different part of the reed stem. Very consistent with a flexible tone.

Yani mouthpieces have a good reputation as does the PPT. Switching between the two will confuse your embouchure, so pick one and stick to it.

Try playing outdoors. It's a revelation and quite an education for the embouchure.

Feeling more in control may be an illusion. Being in control and finding your kit is holding you back is the time to look for different gear.

Bigger numbers don't equate to better kit or better player. Set up needs to fit the players physiognomy, just like shoes need to fit the runner. Bigger shoes don't make a better runner or we'd see more clowns with world records.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Are they permanently immersed in water, or are they just kept damp in an airtight container that prevents them from drying out?

They live in airtight containers with an amount of vodka. Depending on the orientation of the container some will be immersed at any one time but they'll all be as wet as they're going to get.
Reeds are not something I have issues with these days. I buy them, I soak them, I play them, I throw them away when when altissimo gets difficult. I don't do adjusting or anything like that. I'm not that fussed about make either although I normally use RJS or whatever they're called now.

 

[Midgiemo]

I'm extremely grateful to you all for passing on your personal experience to help me. I don't have this problem with the Yani mouthpiece, and I therefore use that for performance and band practice. I don't tend to mix them.

I suspected it would take a while with the PPT - I took Pete's advice on which opening to get and I also got the recommended rovner lig. I do use a cushioned mouthpiece patch, and am obsessive about lining up the reeds. It's looking like poor embouchure isn't it, so isn't it weird that the problem is worse with 2s than 21/2s?

Also, since I'm only using the PPT for focused practice, that's quite demanding on the muscles so could be why the sqeaks start to take over after 20 mins or so, although if the squeaks start and I put on a new reed it's fine. That's why I wondered if it might be a reed problem.

I will try some of the alternative reeds you suggest though, and
have a look at how expensive the Marc Jean lig is having previous experience of what a difference a better lig can make.

There's so much to learn isn't there, and even when you get up to the next level it just unlocks a whole new set of challenges!

 

[Midgiemo]

When doubling, with 5 instruments, I take reeds, in their holders, floating in a watertight container. Assembling at the venue, I find the reeds don't dry out, sitting on the stand and are moist and ready to go. Before I started doing this, I used to have problems with squeaks and squawks from dry reeds.

Imo an 8 tip opening is quite wide and will take some time to adapt to.

As well as varying the strength of the reed it may be beneficial to try a different cut.

A regular or american cut may interface better between mouthpiece and embouchure than a french cut.

I've had some success with GonzalezRC which by the way taste great. South American cane. Useful for loud playing with less effort I find.

All the different coloured packets that Vandoren do have a slightly different cut in French and Regular and are worth trying to see what works.

Rico Reserve come in a french cut and are cut from a different part of the reed stem. Very consistent with a flexible tone.

Yani mouthpieces have a good reputation as does the PPT. Switching between the two will confuse your embouchure, so pick one and stick to it.

Try playing outdoors. It's a revelation and quite an education for the embouchure.

Feeling more in control may be an illusion. Being in control and finding your kit is holding you back is the time to look for different gear.

Bigger numbers don't equate to better kit or better player. Set up needs to fit the players physiognomy, just like shoes need to fit the runner. Bigger shoes don't make a better runner or we'd see more clowns with world records.

Colin, I live on the soggy wet west coast of the Highlands so there's very little incentive to play outside at this time of year! We do, however have a marauding herd of deer regularly churning up our garden......maybe I could treat them to some Moondance, pretty sure it'll turn into Run For the Hills!

 

[Jeanette]

You might find something useful here PPT and JUMBO JAVA squeak

Jx

 

[Midgiemo]

You might find something useful here PPT and JUMBO JAVA squeak

Jx

Thanks Jeanette, loads of good info, need to digest. Glad it's not just me, and that persistance pays off. Squeaks and squawks do not make for a happy journey!

 

[Jeanette]

Thanks Jeanette, loads of good info, need to digest. Glad it's not just me, and that persistance pays off. Squeaks and squawks do not make for a happy journey!

I was hoping you would be inspired by the happy ending

Jx

 

[sax panther]

Hi Midgiemo

I had exactly the same experience as you. Although I liked the sound and feel of the PPT, I found I couldn't stop it squeaking, and ended up selling it, as I had other good mouthpieces that I didn't squeak on.

However, there is a happy ending.....

I then had an opportunity to buy a guardala studio at a very good price, so I did...I had the same squeak issues with that. At the time I was using d'addario reeds, but had a fibracell lying around. I don't like the sound of those, but it was absolutely squeakproof. I did a bit of research and tried to find which reed had the thickest tip. based on manufacturer blurb this looked like the Vandoren V16.

I tried these, and they turned out to be very well behaved on the guardala, and so could possibly have solved my PPT issues too had I been a bit more patient. I do find that once they get a bit worn down, the squeaking creeps back in. I've also recently experimented with a rico plasticover strength 3 with good results, although I'd probably try a 3.5 next time.

So it's definitely worth trying a few different styles of reeds.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Squeaking? I thought it was only clarinettists (and Stan Getz) that squeaked.

No squeaking from any of my 5 PPTs.

 

[MikeMorrell]

No idea whether this is relevant, true or adds anything to what's already been mentioned.

One variable I've not yet seen mentioned in this thread is the distance that the reed extends over the tip of the mouthpiece,. For me, small differences affect my tone and the strength of the embrouchure that I need to maintain. I get squeaks when I don't have enough reed extending over the tip. If I have too much, my embrouchure tires quickly and I get squeaks.

My gut feeling is that there's some optimum 'distance' given the tip opening, reed strength, embrouchure strength, playing style, playing duration/intensity, etc. Some mouthpieces may be - due to their construction (thick/thin rails, baffler, chamber) - more susceptible to squeaks at times than others.

All of which doesn't help much in finding a setup which works best! My point is just to consider not just reed alignment but extension relative to the tip. There are also different reed cuts. Some may work better with the PPT than others. Pure speculation!

Mike

 

[Midgiemo]

Hi Midgiemo

I had exactly the same experience as you. Although I liked the sound and feel of the PPT, I found I couldn't stop it squeaking, and ended up selling it, as I had other good mouthpieces that I didn't squeak on.

However, there is a happy ending.....

I then had an opportunity to buy a guardala studio at a very good price, so I did...I had the same squeak issues with that. At the time I was using d'addario reeds, but had a fibracell lying around. I don't like the sound of those, but it was absolutely squeakproof. I did a bit of research and tried to find which reed had the thickest tip. based on manufacturer blurb this looked like the Vandoren V16.

I tried these, and they turned out to be very well behaved on the guardala, and so could possibly have solved my PPT issues too had I been a bit more patient. I do find that once they get a bit worn down, the squeaking creeps back in. I've also recently experimented with a rico plasticover strength 3 with good results, although I'd probably try a 3.5 next time.

So it's definitely worth trying a few different styles of reeds.

Thanks for this encouragement panther. I totally accept that the major cause of this is likely to be my rubbish embouchure but I'm glad some of you agree that some reeds may 'behave' better than others - it can't ALL be me, I've been playing for many years without squeaks on less demanding mouthpieces. I do have an old Legere somewhere that I used to use just for practising in the house since I thought it didn't project much in a big band situation (where I normally play). I'll look it out and see how it plays on the PPT and also try out some of these alternative reed recommendations.