Beginner What is right? (Embouchure)

[Lizengar]

So after reading Pete Thomas, who showed us 3 pictures and said that they are not wrong and that there are many different kinds of embouchure, I realised I am using a mix of fig 6 and 7. (http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-embouchure)

I'm wearing a denture (lost both 2 front teeth in a freak car accident when I was a kid...go me!) so maybe that's why it gets really uncomfortable for me if I stick to using 6, so I curl my upper lips in a bit but it is nothing like 7 which looks like he is eating his own lips. So it becomes a bit of both.

How do I know that I am doing it right? My teacher said as long as you can get a sound, it means you "sort of got it right". Of which I managed to play the C, G and D scale on my own. I also managed to play the first 2 lines of "All of Me" by John Legend...

How do I know if I am right or wrong when it comes to my embouchure?

 

[Colin1]

I recall asking the same sort of question not so long ago
I got a top answer from jbtsax - I'll see if I can find it

 

[Colin1]

Here it is

http://cafesaxophone.com/threads/two-toning.14929/

Didn't start from exactly the same issue as yours but it boils down to the same thing 🙂

 

[Lizengar]

Thank you very much!

 

[kevgermany]

What's uncomfortable?

What you need to do is build up lip strength, so you're not driving lips with teeth. Too much of this and you'll end up biting into your lips.

 

[MandyH]

have you tried a thick mouthpiece patch?
Both my front teeth are crowned, and I found that using a bare mouthpiece vibrated through my skull in a very uncomfortable way, hence the thick mouthpiece patch.

 

[jbtsax]

This is the standard approach to teaching the saxophone embouchure to beginning students, and as such provides an excellent starting point. Bruce Pearson: Teaching the Saxophone Embouchure

 

[Lizengar]

I think even with the patch, it won't help for my situation as my lower set of teeth is hurting the inside of my lip. So it will take awhile to condition the cushioning, won't it?

Thanks for the links and advice. I will go read up on it!

 

[kevgermany]

I think even with the patch, it won't help for my situation as my lower set of teeth is hurting the inside of my lip

This is a combination of too hard reed, too open mouthpiece and undeveloped embouchure. Net result is you're using teeth to support lip, instead of lip to control reed. If you go on this way, you're going to end up with teeth in lip. Embouchure exercises will help. As will less lip over the lower teeth.

You should never suffer to play the sax.

 

[Jeanette]

I think even with the patch, it won't help for my situation as my lower set of teeth is hurting the inside of my lip. So it will take awhile to condition the cushioning, won't it?

Thanks for the links and advice. I will go read up on it!

If you find after playing for a while that you are biting in to your lower lip you need to stop and rest. It takes time to build up strength in your embouchure, be patient. 🙂

Jx

 

[Lizengar]

Thank you both! I shall go read up more and practice the smile-whistle exercise. But how do I know if it was my lip supporting my reed than my teeth...?

 

[Jay]

My teacher has taught me not to wrap my lip over my teeth. So on the bottom, you make a cushion with your lip - make a whistle and then stick your finger in the little gap your lips leave - can you feel that your finger is supported on your bunched up bottom lip, not your teeth. That's what you're aiming for with your saxophone mouthpiece. On the top it's straightforwardly 'teeth onto the mouthpiece'. I use a mouthpiece patch to stop my teeth slipping.

 

[MandyH]

I'm probably going to be shot down for suggesting this.....this is not a permanent solution...but to tide you over so you can continue to play a little....

Take a cigarette paper, fold it into 4 (or 8) dampen it slightly and fold it over your lower teeth, using it as a cushion. Then play your sax as normal.

I know someone who does use this always. I have used it temporarily, when it had to play long sessions on consecutive days and my lip began to hurt. Once you get over the gag reflex of having paper in your mouth, it's not too bad!

But, as a beginner, I would suggest you play for 10 minutes twice a day, max.

 

[kevgermany]

But how do I know if it was my lip supporting my reed than my teeth...?

As Jay said, you won't curl the lip over the teeth. You'll use, and feel yourself using, the lip muscles.

 

[kernewegor]

Wot Jay said, but I'd express it like this:

Make like a baby sucking its thumb - lips pushed forwards out along your thumb.

Remove thumb. Insert mouthpiece. Blow.

Additionally it is quite an advantage to have a relaxed embouchure. It plays flat, so bring it up to pitch by pushing the mp on further.

 

[Lizengar]

Thank you, I shall try these methods.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Thank you both! I shall go read up more and practice the smile-whistle exercise. But how do I know if it was my lip supporting my reed than my teeth...?

It won't hurt.😉

There is no right and wrong embouchure. imo Just alternatives and choices.

Trying to control the reed by biting, with your lip in the way will do you a mischief. Maybe a permanent one.

I play lips out. 5. Top teeth on a thick patch and bottom lip sulking. This way the amount of lip on the reed can be varied for different effects, tone and volume. This is way down the road for you.

There is an old saying.

" If it hurts, you're doing it wrong." This can be applied to many walks of life.

Perhaps the mouthpiece is too wide and the reed too hard for starting out. Are you using a beginner recommended mouthpiece?

 

[Lizengar]

" If it hurts, you're doing it wrong." This can be applied to many walks of life.

Perhaps the mouthpiece is too wide and the reed too hard for starting out. Are you using a beginner recommended mouthpiece?

But it always hurts the first time, no? I'm talking about falling in love! (chuckles)

Anyway, I am using a Vandoren V16 mouthpiece...which I do not think is a beginner recommended. It was the one I purchased as a recommendation by the guy who sold me the Keilwerth. I changed the reed to a Vandoren Blue 2.5 which is better now as compared to when I was playing with the Vandoren Java 2 Reeds.

I'll look into the patches and will practice my embouchure in front of the mirror. Thanks y'all awesome people!

 

[Colin the Bear]

http://www.johnpacker.co.uk/Catalog...piece-Esprit-cap-ligature-208826#.VN_8NOasV8E

 

[jbtsax]

Traditional pedagogy has the bottom lip rolled over the teeth, just enough to cover the tops of the teeth. This is true not only on saxophone, but clarinet, oboe, english horn, and bassoon as well. Those who have difficulty with this approach are somehow doing it wrong. The correct sensation is to feel the bottom lip pressing up against the reed while the lower teeth and jaw are pulling down at the same time. To do this requires good muscle strength and tone in the muscles around the mouth which comes from daily long tone practice.

Even experienced players with well developed embouchures will experience tired muscles after playing for an extended period of time without a break. It is at this point that the muscles can no longer do the job and the player must support the lip with the bottom teeth. For players just starting out or players like myself whose bottom teeth are a bit sharp and jagged it helps to make a custom formed cushion that fits over the lower teeth. As shown in the photo below, you cut an oval the correct size to fit over the lower teeth, heat the wax oval about 30 seconds in hot water, and then form the patch over the bottom teeth. When removed it retains its shape and can be used over and over again.