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What does this bit do?

Targa

Among the pigeons
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At the top there is a bar with three 'lifters' which close the auxiliary B.
The middle one lifts when closing the B key and the lowest with the C key.
The top one lifts with the front F, but that closes the B anyway.
So that looks like the top 'lifter' is redundant or have I missed something?

I'm assuming at least other tenors are similar.
 

spike

Old Indian
Messages
2,253
I presume you're referring to the left hand stack, all those keys are a mixture of harmonics and false fingerings (without you really having to do any false fingering apart from the B to C flip flop) If you play a penny whistle or a recorder you have to false finger to get the various notes from g to c# on the sax you have a complicated system of keys, pads and lifters that do the job for you to open and close the necessary holes. Fingering top F using the "Fork" fingering you're actually playing a harmonic from B which gives an altissimo G (if yer lucky). B keeps C# down. C opens C# and closes A giving a C and so on. Must admit I'm getting a bit snow-blind here but there's nothing redundant in there. It's all been carefully sussed out over the last hundred or so years. You need to check out some literature on the physical acoustics of blowing down a long conical tube. Hopefully someone on here can give you an appropriate link or explain it in a nutshell. Deary me - I haven't helped at all - I'll probably have nightmares and wake up screaming. Just learn to press the right buttons then you'll be alright. The right hand stack is fairly straight forward in comparison apart from the F#, but it's the same principle of closing a lower tone hole in order to lower a higher note. Lets face it we only have eight fingers and an octave key to produce about 30 notes not including the altissimo register. Sax players are in fact members of a superior specie of human beings! I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were to be proved that God was a sax player.
 

Andrew Sanders

Northern Commissioner for Caslm
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2,773
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were to be proved that God was a sax player.
And his name is Kenny G! (Other sax players are available). My head is puddled now Spike, in out in out shake it all about.
Can you explain it in German?
 

jbtsax

Well-Known Member
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7,999
It took a few minutes for it to sink in what Targa was really asking. The answer is yes the top "lifter" is redundant. Now let me restate the question using the common repair tech terminology.

The "bar" is called the "back bar" of the C keycup. The lower stack has a back bar extending from the F# keycup.

The "lifters" (which is a very clever name by the way) are called the key "feet". They actually serve two purposes: 1) to lift the backbar to close the attached key, and 2) to stop the travel of the key and regulate its opening.

The foot of the front F key really exists only to restrict the travel of the key since it is not needed to close the C keycup. The reason for this is that the touchpiece itself closes the B key which in turn closes the C keycup.

In "tech-speak" the small pad above the B is called the C since it is the pad that closes to play the C. The regular fingering for C is a cross fingering which means the open tonehole that vents the note is followed by a closed tonehole.

The lower stack has a similar conundrum. The pad above the key you press to play F natural is called F#. It is that pad that closes to play F# using the regular fingering. It is also a cross fingered note having a closed tonehole right after the tonehole which vents the note.
 

Targa

Among the pigeons
Subscriber
Messages
8,890
It took a few minutes for it to sink in what Targa was really asking. The answer is yes the top "lifter" is redundant. Now let me restate the question using the common repair tech terminology.

The "bar" is called the "back bar" of the C keycup. The lower stack has a back bar extending from the F# keycup.

The "lifters" (which is a very clever name by the way) are called the key "feet". They actually serve two purposes: 1) to lift the backbar to close the attached key, and 2) to stop the travel of the key and regulate its opening.

The foot of the front F key really exists only to restrict the travel of the key since it is not needed to close the C keycup. The reason for this is that the touchpiece itself closes the B key which in turn closes the C keycup.

In "tech-speak" the small pad above the B is called the C since it is the pad that closes to play the C. The regular fingering for C is a cross fingering which means the open tonehole that vents the note is followed by a closed tonehole.

The lower stack has a similar conundrum. The pad above the key you press to play F natural is called F#. It is that pad that closes to play F# using the regular fingering. It is also a cross fingered note having a closed tonehole right after the tonehole which vents the note.
Thanks for the confirmation that it does all work as I thought and the top one is 'redundant'.
The reason I was looking at it was that the noise wasn't as nice as it used to be, especially from the top A, B and C.
The cigarette paper showed that what I thought was called the auxiliary B was closing but not as tight as other pads.
So I was trying to find out how to tighten it and had worked out that a sliver of cork on the middle and lowest lifters would press it down more but didn't want to alter the top one in case I had missed something.
Sounds better now.
 

Targa

Among the pigeons
Subscriber
Messages
8,890
I presume you're referring to the left hand stack, all those keys are a mixture of harmonics and false fingerings (without you really having to do any false fingering apart from the B to C flip flop) If you play a penny whistle or a recorder you have to false finger to get the various notes from g to c# on the sax you have a complicated system of keys, pads and lifters that do the job for you to open and close the necessary holes. Fingering top F using the "Fork" fingering you're actually playing a harmonic from B which gives an altissimo G (if yer lucky). B keeps C# down. C opens C# and closes A giving a C and so on. Must admit I'm getting a bit snow-blind here but there's nothing redundant in there. It's all been carefully sussed out over the last hundred or so years. You need to check out some literature on the physical acoustics of blowing down a long conical tube. Hopefully someone on here can give you an appropriate link or explain it in a nutshell. Deary me - I haven't helped at all - I'll probably have nightmares and wake up screaming. Just learn to press the right buttons then you'll be alright. The right hand stack is fairly straight forward in comparison apart from the F#, but it's the same principle of closing a lower tone hole in order to lower a higher note. Lets face it we only have eight fingers and an octave key to produce about 30 notes not including the altissimo register. Sax players are in fact members of a superior specie of human beings! I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were to be proved that God was a sax player.
Thanks for replying.
I got as far as 'penny whistle' then it looked a bit complicated so I washed my ears and had a nap, waking up in time for 'God was a sax player'
The Egyptians knew cats are gods.
 

spike

Old Indian
Messages
2,253
sorry for the confusion - my tenor has only got two "lifters" which is why I couldn't find the redundant one. Thanks to jbt for the excellent post. What make of horn is it?
 

Pete Thomas

Chief of Stuff
Commercial Supporter
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13,947
sorry for the confusion - my tenor has only got two "lifters" which is why I couldn't find the redundant one. Thanks to jbt for the excellent post. What make of horn is it?
Aha, interesting.

bauhaus alto has redundant lifter.
Buescher alto doesn't
bauhaus baritone doesn't
R & C tenor has it.
 

jbtsax

Well-Known Member
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Messages
7,999
Henceforth throughout the land a front F key that has a foot which closes the C key shall be called the "Redundant Lifter".
 
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