M/Pieces - Ligs Weinberg Emanon Double Chamber / Double Baffle Mouthpiece

[rhysonsax]

I had heard about this unusual mouthpiece design and just before Christmas I decided to buy the alto version and find out what it is like.

It is designed and made by Professor Anton Weinberg and is available through Dawkes Music in the UK. Here is how they describe it on the Dawkes website: http://www.dawkes.co.uk/accessories-saxophone-alto+mouthpieces.html
Named after Dizzy Gillespie's tune Emanon (no name -backwards)
A new original design that uses the idea of a double baffle two chamber mouthpiece.
Made from the same ebonite as the American Otto Link mouthpieces.
Tonal quality will not break up at great volume but sound is particularly clear for digital recording.

ALTO model uses the famous Vintage Selmer soloist D lay of the 1950/60's.
TENOR uses the famous Vintage Link 7* lay of the 1950/60's.

There are also sound clips on the Dawkes website for the alto: Dead link removed
and for the tenor: http://www.dawkes.co.uk/mp3.php?sound clip=weinberg_tenor_emanon&type=mouthpiece

I must say that I am really impressed with this mouthpiece, which has a nice edgy/boppy sound and is easy to blow. I played it on a gig earlier this week and really enjoyed it. Normally I choose to play a metal high baffle mouthpiece to hear myself against the guitars, keyboards and drums but this ebonite piece was fine.

Now I'm tempted to get the Emanon for my tenor sax as well.

The design of the "double chamber" / "double baffle" feature is a bit difficult to visualise, but I found that Prof. Weinberg has actually included a cross-section diagram in the book he wrote on clarinet and saxophone mouthpieces, so here it is as an attachment. In my mouthpiece the downstream edge of the first "scoop" is more smoothed off than shown in the diagram.

Interestingly, my favourite tenor mouthpiece is a Lawton with a "Reflector" baffle, which is actually a small pit just behind the tip rail. It seems to be quite a similar design idea to this one and both the Emanon and this Lawton have a nice balance of edge and warmth, blow easily and can take a lot of air.

Has anyone else played this piece or seen a similar design ?

Rhys

 

[VirusKiller]

Has anyone else played this piece or seen a similar design ?

No, but I'm playing his old alto Yani mouthpiece, having picked it up on eBay. Got a bit of a shock when I Googled him and saw his bio and working history.

 

[Jules]

I'm pretty certain the double baffle set up is similar to Rico Metalites & Francois Louis Spectruosos

 

[Lupifaro]

Hi Rhys, Just for information the sax player on the clips is Berkshire based Anatoliy Vyacheslavov who has recorded sound clips for my website,notably the Ralph Morgan HR mouthpieces you must listen to the Morgan Jazz Alto 5M clip.He has also recorded sound clips for my range of System 54 saxophones also using a Ralph Morgan HR Jazz 8L.His new Cd is also available via my website.
birdman

 

[old git]

Realise that i am incredibly thick but where is the promised double chamber? Does it change from round to oval which would not always be detectable from the given illustration?

 

[rhysonsax]

Realise that i am incredibly thick but where is the promised double chamber? Does it change from round to oval which would not always be detectable from the given illustration?

I think it is a bit misleading of Weinberg to call it "double chamber". I have heard that term to describe a mouthpiece that has a throat and then a big bulging space in the body of the mouthpiece down towards the sax neck. In fact I have got a baritone Vandoren piece modified by Erik Greifenhagen that is like that.

This Weinberg Emanon is pretty much conventional except for the initial "scoop" out of the baffle. I think that Prof. Weinberg is calling this the first chamber and then the second volume (i.e. the conventional chamber) is the second chamber.

However it is described, it works really well. I think this is because it has a relatively high baffle, but this is removed/relieved nearest to the mouthpiece tip and that cuts down on the screechy edginess, but leaves some power and brightness.

Rhys

 

[griff136]

from your drawing Rhys it looks similar to a Roc Britone ( white) tenor piece I had a couple of years back.

hers one on ebay - albeit an alto piece http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROC-Britone-A...328145232&po=&ps=63&clkid=6080999784018028775

 

[Nick Wyver]

from your drawing Rhys it looks similar to a Roc Britone ( white) tenor piece I had a couple of years back.

hers one on ebay - albeit an alto piece http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROC-Britone-A...328145232&po=&ps=63&clkid=6080999784018028775

I thought it looked like that too. I played an alto one for ages when I had a 1927 Conn. It worked well with it. Got a tenor one somewhere too.

 

[rhysonsax]

Interesting about the ROC Britone - I have seen that before and there seem to be quite a few of them knocking about, but usually cheaper than Griff's link on eBay. It has got a more complex shape to the baffle cut-out than the Weinberg Emanon which just goes straight across. I wonder what that complex shape is trying to achieve.

Someone on SOTW posted a link to this webpage which has some nice pictures and interesting information on the ROC Britone: http://doctorsax.biz/Britone_Tenor_Mpc.htm

How does the ROC sound and would you recommend them ?

Rhys

 

[singlereed]

I bought several NOS ROC mouthpieces on ebay a few years back for £10-20 each - in a range of facings for alto and tenor. There were one or two (can't recall which facings) that did play quite nicely whilst others were unplayable - at least by me, as the facings just didn't suit me. The only thing unusual about these is that the baffle as a V shaped groove on it. Oh, and they are white! I have seen people asking silly money for them on eBay and I think this is just hype - they are just (quite) 'old' as opposed to 'vintage'. I did hear from someone who'd worked at the factory making them and obviously, this was a British business with all the best intentions but in my opinion, you're not missing anything by not ever having tried one. I didn't like any of them enough to use them and I sold them all when having a clear-out. The ones that played well for me did have a pleasant smooth brightness to the sound - I suppose the baffle was doing its job in imparting some edge to the sound without making it sound harsh or brittle.

 

[jonf]

I also bought a load of these NOS a couple of years ago, for, I think, twenty quid each. Interestingly, they came from a clear-out at MIR, the same company now trying it on flogging one for £125. I sold the lot, all at around £40-£50.

I've known about these mouthpieces since the mid-1980s. When I was a callow, skint student in London in 1984, I was ambling past the Richer Sounds shop in London Bridge walk. There was a tatty cardboard box outside full of sax mouthpieces, with '50p each' written on it in marker pen. Most were indescribable rubbish, but there were a few decent ones, so I sat down and went through, sifting out the ones I wanted. I got a tenor Selmer Soloist, metal Selmer Vocaltone, Dick Stabile alto, a couple of others, and a ROC Britone. I've sold them all (for a lot more than 50p!) apart from the ROC. It still sounds good and plays well with a hard reed - it's a bit of a narrow tip opening. Very bright tone.

 

[rhysonsax]

Nice stories about the ROC Britone. Perhaps the internet has done away with the days of boxes of mouthpieces at 50p each.

The baffle shape of the ROC Britone looks quite a lot more complex than my Weinberg Emanon. Here are a couple of pictures I took of mine. You can see that its shape is a bit different to that in Weinberg's own cross-section drawing, with the "scoop" in the actual mouthpiece starting a bit further down the baffle and also have smooth edges.

Rhys

 

[Morgan Fry]

Thanks for the photos, Rhys. This is different to what I mentioned in the SOTW thread -- this is not the Benade channel behind the tip rail idea. This reminds me more of one of the Rousseau floors (JDX, maybe?), better looking work, though.

Doble chamber, FWW has been used to describe a lot of shapes. Generally whenever the throat is much different from the chamber sometimes a piece will get called double chambered.

 

[old git]

Double chamber, FWW has been used to describe a lot of shapes. Generally whenever the throat is much different from the chamber sometimes a piece will get called double chambered.

Thanks Morgan. Imagined the term would only apply to the actual chamber as the "throat", presumably the part that fits on the crook cork, must be circular.

 

[rhysonsax]

Thanks Morgan. Imagined the term would only apply to the actual chamber as the "throat", presumably the part that fits on the crook cork, must be circular.

The part that fits on the cork is called the "bore" and is round, either cylindrical or with a slight taper to it.

The term "throat" is used to describe the part of the mouthpiece, usually just under the end of the window, where the chamber can neck down before expanding out into the bore. This is most obvious on some soprano mouthpieces (sometimes called "pea-shooter") where you see a small circle if you look back up the mouthpiece bore from the shank end. You can also see an obvious throat on designs like the Brilhart or Selmer Soloist (arched throat) of Selmer S80 or Yanagisawa metal (square throat).

If the mouthpiece design has a chamber that bulges out after the throat to a diameter bigger than the bore, then this is what most people think of as a "double chamber".

Rhys

 

[old git]

Thanks Rhys.
Gwilym.

 

[Morgan Fry]

The part that fits on the cork is called the "bore" and is round, either cylindrical or with a slight taper to it.

The term "throat" is used to describe the part of the mouthpiece, usually just under the end of the window, where the chamber can neck down before expanding out into the bore.
Rhys

Yeah, that's how I use it too, but some guys call what I call the throat the chamber. No hard and fast rules here, even though I do agree with your terminology and some standardization would make it easier for us to understand eachother...

 

[rhysonsax]

I am still really liking my alto Emanon and picked up a tenor from eBay that is OK but not so special.

I contacted Prof Anton Weinberg to say how much I like his alto mouthpiece and to ask whether he does a baritone version. He doesn't, because he can't get an ebonite blank of the right shape. But then I asked whether he could "Emanon-ise" one of my existing high-baffle baritone pieces and sent it off to him at Dawkes to appraise it.

I chose an RPC high-baffle baritone piece that plays nicely (good facing) and has a bright sound - just a bit too bright for me as the baffle is so high and long.

Well I sent it to him by post on Thursday and he rang me on Friday late morning to say that he had already modified it, by scooping out a bit just behind the tip rail (see pictures of my Emanon alto). I had it back in my hands by Saturday lunchtime and it is my new favourite baritone mouthpiece. The sound still has a nice bark to it, but now a bit more warmth and flexibility. he didn't touch the chamber or the facing as they were both already fine.

It cost me less than £40, is really good and had a turnaround time of less than 48 hours from leaving me to back in my mouth !

Rhys

PS And Anton is a really nice guy to talk to.

 

[jonf]

Fantastic service.

 

[singlereed]

My experience too, good service (outsanding, actually), good value and good work. He's a really nice chap, too.