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Saxophones WARNING - some chump appears to have bought this rip-off...

DavidUK

Well-Known Member
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4,328
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Near Lutterworth, Leics.
:(

On Gumtree, ad posted 2hrs ago, Ken from Langdon Hills, Essex, posting for 5 months, asks £500 for this:

Description
Unwanted gift. Brand new. Comes with case, reeds and cleaning cloths. Collection only from Basildon. Dark grey colour with gold engraving. SOLD





Some poor sucker has thought "My god! A Yany for £500!" and lapped it up.

Spot the differences, here: A991B - Alto Sax Black - Yanagisawa Saxophones UK

No, you really don't have to list them, there are SO many. But for the unaware, £500 goes down the pan.

"Unwanted gift" my backside. I have reported the ad to Gumtree and suggested they not only remove it (too late) but also remove the advertiser.

:mad:
 

Clivey

Senior Member
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851
Location
Edinburgh/Hot Rock off African Coast

As you can plainly see these fake/tribute pieces are widespread and anybody buying one should be aware that whilst they are possibly good copies, the infringements make them potentially illegal and irresponsible purchases at the very least. Some of us might not care and buy them anyway as a prop or whatever.
 

s.mundi

Member
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460
Location
Texas Gulf Coast
New players should heed your warning.
I own authentic big names horns and 100% authentic "Made in China" horns. I love all of them. In my lollipop world, there's no place for supporting the counterfeit/fake market.
 
OP
DavidUK

DavidUK

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,328
Location
Near Lutterworth, Leics.
Here's another one:


Ebay seller eduar.borge (134) from Chelmsford (Essex again) says:

I got this gift saxophone, it is in great condition, it was used 3 months, I don't know the brand, it must be Japanese.

His photos clearly show "Yanagisawa JAPAN" on the bell. He's pretending he doesn't know this is the brand name so that yet another chump grabs it for an ever so cheap BIN of £500 (again - coincidence?), thinking they've got a bargain.

He's recently sold two flutes and a Thomson (?) sax so I'm sure he knows the Yany brand.

I have reported the ad to eBay.
 
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thomsax

Well-Known Member
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3,439
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Sweden
His photos clearly show "Yanagisawa JAPAN" on the bell. He's pretending he doesn't know this is the brand name so that yet another chump grabs it for an ever so cheap BIN of £500 (again - coincidence?), thinking they've got a bargain.
Is it possible to protect a name? Yanagisawa is rather common.
 

Pete Thomas

Chief of Stuff
Commercial Café Supporter
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Is it possible to protect a name? Yanagisawa is rather common.
The name is a registered trademark. That obviously doesn’t stop it being used of course, just stops it being used legally.

Selling a counterfeit is illegal in most jurisdictions.
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
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3,439
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Sweden
I know a Swedish person and his family name is Yanagisawa. I think he can buy blanks in China and engrave his last name on bell. No lyre or anything else that can be mistaken as the real thing. "King" was a common brand on saxes. A common name as well.
 

Pete Thomas

Chief of Stuff
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I know a Swedish person and his family name is Yanagisawa. I think he can buy blanks in China and engrave his last name on bell. No lyre or anything else that can be mistaken as the real thing. "King" was a common brand on saxes. A common name as well.
This is why trademarks are divided into different categories or classes.

I could open a shop selling pies and call it the Yanagisawa pie shop. But I would not be able to use the name on saxophones
 
OP
DavidUK

DavidUK

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4,328
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Near Lutterworth, Leics.
I messaged seller:

"Hi,
This is a counterfeit Yanagisawa sax. The brand is clearly shown on the bell, as you may know full well.
Selling fake goods is a criminal offence.
I have reported the ad to ebay.
If you didn't know it's a fake, destroy it. If you did, do the same.
Hope that helps?"

He replied:

"The mark is clear but I never heard about it, I'm not mistaken people l put the TRUTH in the description. Before you accuse a person be kind in asking what is going on." and "I am looking forward to ebay contact me about this. Thank you so much for your valuable information."

Smart ar*e.

There's a bid now too.
 

Colin the Bear

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,439
Location
Burnley bb9 9dn
I've had fake all sorts in my time. including money. Most recently a Shure mic. Caveat emptor.

£500 for a reasonably well made Far Eastern saxophone isn't that much of a rip off.

The reply sound decidedly inscrutable. ;)
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
840
Location
New Mexico, US
Raises an interesting question, however.

If the seller is making no claim as to know anything about the brand of horn, or anything about saxes....would a listing/auction site really do anything other than (at most) remove the listing ?

Ostensibly.....ostensibly...the seller has no knowledge that the thing is fake.

I agree with you in this instance...it's a fairly safe bet the guy knows these are fake and is intentionally being very vague in his description, going so far as to suggest he has little knowledge of instruments. He is leaving it to the VIEWER to conclude "OMG, this guy is selling a Yani !"
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
840
Location
New Mexico, US
The name is a registered trademark. That obviously doesn’t stop it being used of course, just stops it being used legally.

Selling a counterfeit is illegal in most jurisdictions.
"Hi, This is a counterfeit Yanagisawa sax. The brand is clearly shown on the bell, as you may know full well.
Selling fake goods is a criminal offence"
Does the 'fact' that a seller does not know it is a fake make a difference, legally ? I mean, if he were talking up the horns bigtime ("I have this great Yani here, a pro horn" etc, etc....) then there wouldn't be much wiggle room.

Also....what IF a person is selling a forgery but repeatedly states the instrument IS a forgery ?

Quick glance (US) appears to suggest that a buyer has not committed a crime if they knowingly purchase a counterfeit good for their use. And seller has not committed the counterfeit trafficking crime if they made no intention to deceive.


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I understand this thread is more particularly moral argument in nature...I was just curious....

... because I recently acquired a forged Selmer (chinese) and have posted it FS on my website, for quite cheap (and it's not a terrible horn, actually - after some adjustments)....clearly noting (repeatedly) that it is an asian-made forgery.

My same ad got deleted at the 'other forum', moderator there stating it didn't matter if seller was fully representing item as forged, I am still selling a counterfeit item and the Forum cannot have that.

S. Mundi's lollipop world , if I intimate correctly , would instruct that I should NOT do this - because I am in fact 'supporting' these counterfeiters, and the only upstanding recourse would be for me to destroy the horn, make it a planter, or keep it forever for myself, perhaps.

OK, I know I am digressing here....but it seems that getting back to the eBay instance, seller could argue he made no intention to deceive or misrepresent, therefore would not be open to a trafficking of counterfeits charge.

I (somewhat naively) had also assumed the same: not only am I making NO attempt to deceive or confuse, I am clearly clarifying precisely what the item IS.
Is this 'insufficient' in others' eyes ? Am I therefore....a scumbag ?o_O

Again, this subject has both legal and moral aspects to it, I know....
 
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s.mundi

Member
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460
Location
Texas Gulf Coast
The person that buys your counterfeit horn may not be as transparent or honest about its authenticity.
Some people buy products and resale them only for profitable factors.

Good luck
 

Pete Thomas

Chief of Stuff
Commercial Café Supporter
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I can certainly appreciate there is a difference between selling a counterfeit trying to pass it off and selling a counterfeit while disclosing that’s what it is.

Even so I would check with local law-enforcement how they view the legality. I would think even if it’s illegal they may turn a blind eye to the odd single sale but may come down heavily if they suspect bulk sales in other words trafficking.

My advice would be to cut your losses and remove the logo then sell it as unbranded.
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
840
Location
New Mexico, US
The person that buys your counterfeit horn may not be as transparent or honest about its authenticity.
Some people buy products and resale them only for profitable factors.
Yes, fair 'nuff - this would probably be the strongest argument, moral or practical, against. It does beg the question as to whether future resellings become the seller's responsibility, however (legally not, morally there's an argument to be made).
I can certainly appreciate there is a difference between selling a counterfeit trying to pass it off and selling a counterfeit while disclosing that’s what it is.
Even so I would check with local law-enforcement how they view the legality. I would think even if it’s illegal they may turn a blind eye to the odd single sale but may come down heavily if they suspect bulk sales in other words trafficking.
Gonna ask a couple of lawyer friends (although interestingly, the former owner - who purchased it new - is a lawyer). From what I have researched, a main legal crux is whether the seller is 'perpetrating the fraud' or not.

Just to play it safe, 'til I gather more info - I have removed my ads/listings from all sites besides my own.

So back to this eBay listing...can one can actually argue that the seller DavidUK communicated with is perpetrating a fraud ? As he will certainly claim to know very little about the sax beyond what he has noted in the auction. (Rhetorical question, I suppose - as eBay has removed the listing, BTW - from what I have read, eBay has a very stringent policy on this. I have recently been seeing forged Keiwerths and Jupiters as well. So they are going beyond Selmers and Yanis. Perhaps we should all make a habit of reporting these every time. Usually, as they are becoming more ubiquitous, I just laugh and keep scrolling).
 
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Colin the Bear

Well-Known Member
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12,439
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Burnley bb9 9dn
There's clearly a case for the seller knowing what it is. If it was an unwanted gift wouldn't one assume it was genuine and google the going rate? If one was informed Happy Birthday here's a fake horn then knowledge has been passed on. It just reeks of fish but it is pretty in the photos though.
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
840
Location
New Mexico, US
Oh I have no doubt the seller knows, I was just speculating how well he might be able to defend himself by claiming ignorance. Apparently, eBay doesn't care what his explanation might be.
 
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