Saxophones Vintage sax as your main instrument?

I suppose at some point I'll have to go to some kind of harness for baritone. I have one for bass but I don't like it, it doesn't adjust up high enough. I usually play bass from a stand anyway, and when I have to stand or move I just use a super-wide strap and grit my teeth.

I did NOT try out a variety of harnesses to see which ones worked for me and which didn't.

I have pretty much permanent arthritis pain in my neck from 45 years of saxophone playing and 50 years of long distance cycling.
 
Before you start modifying the thing, make sure you're using good playing position.

There should be essentially zero force on the right thumb. Raise
Absolutely essential. The posture is very important, on any instrument, and the importance is double on a heavy horn.
 
Try this method. Put the right hand fingers in a playing position with closed keys. make a nice arc with the fingers and put the thumb as last on the hook.

It takes some time to get used to the weight of the bari.
Thanks. Yes, it makes the bass clarinet seem like a featherweight... but I find the sax holder works really well to take the weight when standing up - doesn't work so well sitting down.
For the fingers, the method you suggest is exactly the same for the bass clarinet. My 'problem', I think, come from the fact that the right hand keys are comparatively lower/further away than on the bass clarinet - therefore, my wrist ends up cocked at a strange/uncomfortable angle.
As I say, I'll keep working on it.
Thanks for all the helpful suggestions and tips.
 
Bear in mind that it is possible to play the full range of any curved saxophone without using thumbs. It's an interesting exercise to experiment how little input the thumbs need to have.

Thumb rests are a location point. imo. I've removed the right hand thumb rest on some saxophones for comfort. I have large hands with short thick digits. Some are downright painful.
 
Thanks. One more question, maybe for @fabriziodalisera or @turf3 or anyone who plays a Conn 12M.
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One key I had real problems with was the left-hand pinky G# key - I found it really heavy and almost impossible play without re-adjusting the angle of my whole hand. My tech 'unattached' the key from the B/Bb cluster by bending back the little piece of of metal under the key so it plays independently. It's now very free and easy to play, but of course I've lost the convenience of holding down the key when playing from G# to B/Bb. Is it just a case of doing some weight-lifting with my LH pinky until it's Schwarzenegger-like? Or can that cluster be made light(ish) and responsive?
 
Hello @Bassclarinetjasper originally the Conn was born without the G# attached to the other low notes. But I linked it to the other low notes. Maybe your tech set the spring tension too hard. Many students of wine wanted to try my bari, and many of them found it too uncomfortable. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's that terrible. Mulligan, Chaloff, and other players played Conns with fluidity, so it can be done.
Maybe you just have to find if is it the instrument for you or not.
 
One key I had real problems with was the left-hand pinky G# key - I found it really heavy and almost impossible play without re-adjusting the angle of my whole hand. My tech 'unattached' the key from the B/Bb cluster by bending back the little piece of of metal under the key so it plays independently. It's now very free and easy to play, but of course I've lost the convenience of holding down the key when playing from G# to B/Bb. Is it just a case of doing some weight-lifting with my LH pinky until it's Schwarzenegger-like? Or can that cluster be made light(ish) and responsive?
I thought that removing the link from the G# key only affects the bell keys.
 
Harnesses also bring one’s attention to posture, which can have a great influence on shoulder and back fatigue and pain. I have not read that study, but I wonder whether (and how) they controlled for that. Did they have another group that wore neck straps and received counseling regarding posture?
It was small study. I think students, around 20 years old, and had problems with necks, backs and shoulders were told to try/switch to harnesses. Of course, student that was ok with straps continued with their neckstrapjs.

I had problem with my neck and back. The harness helped me to get a better tone as well.
 
For the B and Bb bell keys I loosen the springs until the keys move when you slowly shake the saxophone in a horizontal position.
It's not so much the connection with the low B that's the problem - it's the C#. Everything's tweakable, but sooner or later you run into the need for certain to springs to have a minimum tension on them before other problems crop up.
 
It's not so much the connection with the low B that's the problem - it's the C#. Everything's tweakable, but sooner or later you run into the need for certain to springs to have a minimum tension on them before other problems crop up.
Yes, the C# was pretty much unplayable for me without moving my whole hand position, until I got the G# key 'decoupled'... so does that suggest it's either time for a pinky-strengthening programme or an instrument rethink, rather than asking a different repairer to take a look? (I have quite big hands, so the reach is not a problem, just the necessary leverage)
 
Yes, the C# was pretty much unplayable for me without moving my whole hand position, until I got the G# key 'decoupled'... so does that suggest it's either time for a pinky-strengthening programme or an instrument rethink, rather than asking a different repairer to take a look? (I have quite big hands, so the reach is not a problem, just the necessary leverage)
It's likely to be a bit of both. If a repairer is unfamiliar with such horns it's often the case that they'll set the action somewhat heavier, just to be on the safe side. This is to prevent the C# from blowing open.
But they and you can play-test the horn and find the sweet spot for the spring tension instead. If you couple this with ensuring the relevant keys aren't sloppy, that the C# tonehole/keycup is dead flat and that the pad is perfectly seated - you can shave a little more tension off the springs. Careful choice of buffering materials will help too. Repeat with the G# for maximum effect.

Some getting used to the action will help too, but in the end you'll always be dealing with what is (by today's standards) a relatively inefficient mechanism.
 
Well, I"ve been playing a 12M for 40 years now as my main horn.

Key to good functioning of the LH little finger mechanism is reduction of friction. There are a lot of linkages with sliding motion. These should at a minimum be regularly lubricated with cork grease, but best practice will be to replace cork with Delrin, PTFE, or UHMW-PE on the sliding joints.

Similarly, because the G#-B-C# linkage involves sliding motion, using those advanced materials will improve the performance of that LH cluster, a LOT.

You can also do a small amount of adjustment of WHERE the G# linkage plate's contact point touches the B and C# keys. This has a small but meaningful effect on the force, since the keys are all pivoted on different axes.

The C# key on the Conn actually is a LOT easier-operating than on the vast majority of vintage horns, due to its two piece construction which makes best use of mechanical advantage. However, once again, you need a little plastic tube on the key at the point of sliding contact, down by the key cup.

Finally, the G# linkage itself is prone to excessive friction due to its geometry, so yet again you need to replace the cork with one of the plastic materials. When you do that, then you can have a lighter G# key spring and the pad will still reliably close. With unlubricated cork, that spring has to be real strong to make sure the G# pad reliably closes.

Last point on slicking up the cluster - as with many other points in the mechanism, you need to decide for each point where sliding motion occurs WHERE you're going to put the cushioning material. Choose wrongly and there'll be a sliding part that tries to plow up yoru cushioning material every time it moves.

And make sure for any linkage joint that has sliding motion and cork, to regularly lubricate it with cork grease.

I assure you that MY Conn 12M has a slicker more positive key feel than any Selmer-type with their enormous key travel, spongy keywork, and the dreadful tilting Bb that falls away from the weakest finger you have just when you need a firm positive key action.
 
Well, I"ve been playing a 12M for 40 years now as my main horn.

Key to good functioning of the LH little finger mechanism is reduction of friction. There are a lot of linkages with sliding motion. These should at a minimum be regularly lubricated with cork grease, but best practice will be to replace cork with Delrin, PTFE, or UHMW-PE on the sliding joints.

Similarly, because the G#-B-C# linkage involves sliding motion, using those advanced materials will improve the performance of that LH cluster, a LOT.

You can also do a small amount of adjustment of WHERE the G# linkage plate's contact point touches the B and C# keys. This has a small but meaningful effect on the force, since the keys are all pivoted on different axes.

The C# key on the Conn actually is a LOT easier-operating than on the vast majority of vintage horns, due to its two piece construction which makes best use of mechanical advantage. However, once again, you need a little plastic tube on the key at the point of sliding contact, down by the key cup.

Finally, the G# linkage itself is prone to excessive friction due to its geometry, so yet again you need to replace the cork with one of the plastic materials. When you do that, then you can have a lighter G# key spring and the pad will still reliably close. With unlubricated cork, that spring has to be real strong to make sure the G# pad reliably closes.

Last point on slicking up the cluster - as with many other points in the mechanism, you need to decide for each point where sliding motion occurs WHERE you're going to put the cushioning material. Choose wrongly and there'll be a sliding part that tries to plow up yoru cushioning material every time it moves.

And make sure for any linkage joint that has sliding motion and cork, to regularly lubricate it with cork grease.

I assure you that MY Conn 12M has a slicker more positive key feel than any Selmer-type with their enormous key travel, spongy keywork, and the dreadful tilting Bb that falls away from the weakest finger you have just when you need a firm positive key action.
Thanks for that very comprehensive (and encouraging) reply. Now all I need is a workshop that can do as you explain above... The truth is, I do already really enjoy the instrument and would love to stick with it.
 
The problem, at least here in Italy where I live is that almost everybody plays Selmer. A lot of techs don't know how to work on Conns. That's why my tech is a baritone Conn player!
 
It's not really that you have to know specifically how to work on Conns as opposed to Selmers; they're basically the same thing with minor differences in the machinery, you can see the differences by inspection.

The problem is that people look at the Conn, try to tell you it's worthless, will be unreliable, plays out of tune, and you need to trade it in on this Selmer (or, worse, Chinese-made Selmer copy) that'll be SO much better. In other words, laziness combines with the desire to sell stuff.
 

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