Saxophones Vintage sax as your main instrument?

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Bassclarinetjasper

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Eindhoven, Netherlands
I started playing baritone sax just over a year ago, after a few decades playing clarinet and bass clarinet. I'd always had a 'thing' for the beautiful sound of the bari, and, along with turning 50, I finally made the leap because I met someone selling a 1936 Conn 12M that had belonged to a recently departed local jazz great (Gijs Hendriks, in case anyone's interested in Dutch jazz...)
At the time, I also watched some videos by Cafe Saxophone member (legend!) @fabriziodalisera and thought - Wow! That's the instrument for me!

Fast forward a year, and after some mouthpiece and reed fiddling, I've found a set-up that works for me (Aizen LS 7 and Alexander DC 2.5) and is responsive and in tune. Apart from some discomfort in my right wrist (I think because of where the thumb rest is placed), I find it pretty comfortable overall.
And I've totally fallen for bari playing... the bass clarinet is gathering dust, and I'm working on the chops necessary to get a big band spot (much harder than I naively/arrogantly thought...)

Anyway, my question is it realistic/sensible to use this as my main/only instrument? If I'd known I was going to fall so hard for bari playing, I might have thought a bit more carefully about practicalities (like Low A or no, and whether a vintage beauty like this is more suited to, well, a jazz legend, with mere mortals better sticking to a modern Yamaha, Yanagisawa etc.)
Any thoughts/advice/experience welcome. (The sound is beautiful, of course...!)
IMG_1030.webp
 
The lack of a low A is not in itself a big problem for big-band playing - you can just play up an octave.

My advice is to choose the instrument that you are most comfortable with rather than worrying too much about sound. As you get used to it you will find that you sound good too.

My first bari was a Buescher Big B - it sounded great, but it was not nimble - especially the right and left little finger keys - and these are used a lot in big-band music. So I changed to a modern bari (Yamaha, then Yanagisawa), and I don’t regret it - maybe the sound isn’t as rich, but I can play the fast passages much easier. If you are comfortable playing the low notes fast on your Conn then stick with what you have, but otherwise you might consider a modern instrument.
 
Gary Smulyan, bari player for the Vanguard Jazz Orchestra, played on a 12M for most of his career, and only last year “modernized” to a Selmer SBA. Joe Temperly, RIP, played one his entire career. So did Gerry Mulligan. I know lots of bari players who refuse to play anything else. A 12M, especially one from the ‘30s, is a top notch professional instrument, and will be welcome in any big band.

If you want to play rock, pop and funk, the lack of a low A will be a problem. For jazz it will be just fine.
 
@Bassclarinetjasper Thanks for your kind words. I'm mainly a baritone player, and, as you noticed I also play a Conn 12M.
Honestly if you like the sound and you can deal with a bit "prehistoric" ergo, the Conn is a wonderful instrument.
Conns are not for everybody, but if you like the "cavernous vibe" it's the baritone for you.
Having a low A is not mandatory, unless if you play classical music.
Many renowned pros played Conns is big bands.
Bye, Fabrizio
 
When I played bari in big bands 20 years ago, my horn was a Buescher True Tone. No issues with blend or volume when played with a RPC 0.105 rollover. I also loved its lyrical character when played in smaller ensembles as a solo voice.
 
I play vintage Conn NWII Alto & Tenor saxes.

I'm sure newer horns have their advantages, but I enjoy the challenges they bring. I don't find it to hold me back playing with the group I do.
 
skeller047 said:
If you want to play rock, pop and funk, the lack of a low A will be a problem. For jazz it will be just fine.
Click to expand...
Of course, if you are a jazz player that want to play rock, pop, in a horn section the low A is good. The low A bari is not a better than a low Bb. With the low A bari the musicians got more jobs.
 
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The saxes I play are from 1938,1959 and 1962. Older American saxes, Vintage? I guess I have to spend a lot of money to call them vintage. Sooner or later you come to a point when you must overhaul your saxes.

I play older saxes because it was possible for me to buy a used baritone with a big voice. I played a low A Weltklang baritone before I bought my "The Martin". The Weltklang had a more basson like tone.

The music I play is blues, rock & roll, R&B, soul ..... and I try to make the music bigger with my baritone. I use to follow the bass and pumping up the music. That was what they did back in 40's, 50's and part of the 60's as well. Listen to the bari (Red Tyler) in Little Richards music. When the electric bass arrived and the amplifiers became the better there was no need to use the baritone sax in this way. The low Bb baritone use to be fatter compared to the low A when it comes to the tone.

If I'm going to buy a new baritone sax it's think it will be a low Bb.
 
I played a Martin (and prior to that a Buescher) baritone for years in a big band/blues/rock band environment and only switched to a low A model when I started to play more contemporary big band charts and did more gigs with soul bands. I still feel that a low Bb bari gives you more of a soloist's tone but it's reasonably true to say that most bandleaders these days like to have a low A bari around.

As for the discomfort on the thumb hook - have it moved. It's an easy and common job. You'll likely lose a little bit of the horn's finish but it'll be worth it if it means you'll avoid running into joint problems further down the line.
What I tend to do is remove the hook, put some tape on the body to protect the finish then pop it back in place with a cable tie around the body. You can then move the hook around until the player finds the sweet spot - after which it can be soldered in place.
 
Baritone is my primary saxophone and I've been using the same 1946 Conn since I bought it in 1984.

I have had exactly ONE bandleader ever comment on the lack of the low A. I told him that if he'd buy me a low A horn I'd play it, and that was that.

Of course if I got a call from a serious big name band and was required to use a low A, I'd do that, but I don't think Gordon Goodwin's going to be calling me any time soon.
 
fabriziodalisera said:
@Bassclarinetjasper Thanks for your kind words. I'm mainly a baritone player, and, as you noticed I also play a Conn 12M.
Honestly if you like the sound and you can deal with a bit "prehistoric" ergo, the Conn is a wonderful instrument.
Conns are not for everybody, but if you like the "cavernous vibe" it's the baritone for you.
Having a low A is not mandatory, unless if you play classical music.
Many renowned pros played Conns is big bands.
Bye, Fabrizio
Click to expand...
Thanks, @fabriziodalisera. Your lockdown 'battle' with the Selmer Mark VI was an inspiration for me choosing the Conn! Will keep working on the prehistoric fingers...
 
Before you start modifying the thing, make sure you're using good playing position.

There should be essentially zero force on the right thumb. Raise the strap till the thing hangs right at playing height. Do NOT try to hold it up with your right thumb. You simply can't do it.

Use the rotational adjustments of the neck in the body and the mouthpiece on the neck to properly position the horn.

There should be a very light steering force on each thumb to bring the mouthpiece to your mouth, but that's all. If' you'll make sure of the correct playing position (and it's meant to be played hanging to your right side, NOT in the middle) I very much doubt you'll really need to reposition the thumbhoook.


Now that tiny domed left hand thumbrest - you'll want to enlarge that. I just glued a champagne cork over it, then cut it to the desired (flat) size. Been that way since 1984.
 
@turf3 Thanks a lot. Yes, I have been trying to get the sax to hang at the right height (and have been using a sax holder, which takes a lot of the weight), but the problem comes from the height of my thumb in relation to the fingers. But I'll see if I can adjust my position again.
As for the left-hand thumb rest... is there really one there!?
IMG_1037.webp
 
The left and right hand thumbs should be relaxed. You are running the low A key with the thumbs. Some baris have the low A low key connected to the "G# cluster" as well.

I never adjust my bari harness. I always play bari standing. So the harness is fixed. To hang a heavy baritone in a neck strap around your neck is IMO insane.
 
thomsax said:
The left and right hand thumbs should be relaxed. You are running the low A key with the thumbs. Some baris have the low A low key connected to the "G# cluster" as well.

I never adjust my bari harness. I always play bari standing. So the harness is fixed. To hang a heavy baritone in a neck strap around your neck is IMO insane.
Click to expand...
Low A key seems to have been left off the OP's 1936 Conn baritone.

I must be insane, have been playing baritone with a neck strap continuously since the early 1980s. But I use a neck strap that goes around the neck like a belt, with a buckle, so its length only varies when I intentionally change it, unlike those choker-slider types where you start each practice session with it at the wrong length and have to chase the correct length.
 
turf3 said:
Low A key seems to have been left off the OP's 1936 Conn baritone.

I must be insane, have been playing baritone with a neck strap continuously since the early 1980s. But I use a neck strap that goes around the neck like a belt, with a buckle, so its length only varies when I intentionally change it, unlike those choker-slider types where you start each practice session with it at the wrong length and have to chase the correct length.
Click to expand...

...... and on this Conn 11M (to low A) from 1968 as well 😉
11MulowA.JPG
We have been talking about low A and low Bb, but the OP have a low Bb, so you are correct.

I didn't write that you are inssane but now when I know you are using a neck strap ...... ?????😉

For many years ago I read a Norwegian medical study. The students had problems with shoulders and backs. Instead of using neckstraps the switched to harnesses. The result was less hurting shoulders and backs. The study was not big enough .... but just the fact that some students got rid of thier problems gave me a hint of how abnormal I was that used a neck strap on baritone. Today I use the same harness on both tenor and baritone. I have the newspapers clipping but I can't find it.
 
Bassclarinetjasper said:
@turf3 Thanks a lot. Yes, I have been trying to get the sax to hang at the right height (and have been using a sax holder, which takes a lot of the weight), but the problem comes from the height of my thumb in relation to the fingers. But I'll see if I can adjust my position again.
As for the left-hand thumb rest... is there really one there!?View attachment 25438
Click to expand...
This is what I did with mine.

IMG_3451[1].webp
 
thomsax said:
...... and on this Conn 11M (to low A) from 1968 as well 😉
View attachment 25441
We have been talking about low A and low Bb, but the OP have a low Bb, so you are correct.

I didn't write that you are inssane but now when I know you are using a neck strap ...... ?????😉

For many years ago I read a Norwegian medical study. The students had problems with shoulders and backs. Instead of using neckstraps the switched to harnesses. The result was less hurting shoulders and backs. The study was not big enough .... but just the fact that some students got rid of thier problems gave me a hint of how abnormal I was that used a neck strap on baritone. Today I use the same harness on both tenor and baritone. I have the newspapers clipping but I can't find it.
Click to expand...
Harnesses also bring one’s attention to posture, which can have a great influence on shoulder and back fatigue and pain. I have not read that study, but I wonder whether (and how) they controlled for that. Did they have another group that wore neck straps and received counseling regarding posture?
 
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