Mouthpieces Vintage composite C melody mouthpiece

[Hoosierken]

I found this piece on Ebay and got it pretty inexpensively. It is a metal and hard rubber composite. The only markings say Pat. Pending. It is smaller in diameter than my Mouthpiece Planet C mel MP but I found that my alto ligature would fit, it also fit my neck cork perfectly. The two screw alto ligs were too small and all of the tenor ligs were too large though. I tried it first with a 2.25 Legere American Cut and then with a 3.0 Legere Signature cut and liked the latter much better. I was able to get it in tune pretty good but it adjusted way farther in than the Mouthpiece Planet one tunes. I found a PDF online from the Smithsonian about sax mouthpieces. According to it the composite MP were pretty much done by 1930. Does anyone have any info to add about this one.

This is the link to the PDF that I found - The Early Evolution of the Saxophone Mouthpiece

 

[rhysonsax]

I have a similar-looking mouthpiece marked "Sil-Va-Lae". There is a thread about those over on SOTW and probably more information if you search for that branding.

Rhys

 

[Colin the Bear]

I have a Lelandais tenor piece that looks very similar. Silver lay on HR.

 

[Hoosierken]

This one is solid metal with hard rubber cast around it. Instead of a metal ring around the bottom the metal is a ridge. The closest I have been able to find is this unbranded alto in the middle of this pic. The Smithsonian article states that it resembles the drawing used in the patent by F. Starke in 1905. After the Stark patent ran out, other companies copied it. At that time a patent was good for 17 years.

 

[PigSquealer]

I’ve never seen one that shape & markings.
The evolution article is the only such article I’ve found. The picture with three above. The Holton is on the right.

 

[rhysonsax]

Interesting - do you mean that the whole of the inside (baffle, chamber, throat, bore etc.) is metal ?

Rhys

 

[PigSquealer]

Interesting - do you mean that the whole of the inside (baffle, chamber, throat, bore etc.) is metal ?

Rhys

Some are. Checkout the article posted above by OP.

The Holton mouthpieces were actually different colors. One for each SACT.

 

[rhysonsax]

Fascinating.

It seems over-complicated to make the functioning bits in metal and then have a separate manufacturing operation to add the Bakelite to the outside of that. Why not just make a metal mouthpiece ?

But it's good to know that it will be "as enduring as the Pyramids" !

Rhys

 

[PigSquealer]

Fascinating.

It seems over-complicated to make the functioning bits in metal and then have a separate manufacturing operation to add the Bakelite to the outside of that. Why not just make a metal mouthpiece ?

But it's good to know that it will be "as enduring as the Pyramids" !

Rhys

Yeah that never made any sense to me either. I don’t think there was any great cost savings. A benefit in labor savings? You would think this was like making the mouthpiece twice labor wise. Maybe it was more cost efficient to cast two pieces than machine a metal mouthpiece?
On a long shot guess. Bakelight was not strong enough. They were trying to get away from sulfur tasting mouthpieces. The metal part added strength.
I have two of these and the Pyramids are still standing

 

[Hoosierken]

It is metal all of the way though. It is also very very similar to the one from the Smithsonian article, it even has the curved area below the metal table. I think that it also plays a lot easier than my modern Mouthpiece Planet C mel one. I bought it because I wanted to try an MP from the same era as my Conn. I vacillated between this one and the Conn Eagle C Mel. The article also talks about the lack of tooth marks on so many of these vintage MPs. According to it, this may have been because players were using lip out embouchure and keeping their teeth off of the top. That is the way that I try to play but catch myself letting my teeth rest on the MP after awhile of playing.

 

[PigSquealer]

Fascinating.

It seems over-complicated to make the functioning bits in metal and then have a separate manufacturing operation to add the Bakelite to the outside of that. Why not just make a metal mouthpiece ?

But it's good to know that it will be "as enduring as the Pyramids" !

Rhys

Not to hijack the thread I feel the information is relative.

I found an answer for the reasoning of the build in Bakelite / White metal. Credit goes to page 21 and 22 of this article.

Page 17

content.wisconsinhistory.org

 

[Hoosierken]

Not to hijack the thread I feel the information is relative.

I found an answer for the reasoning of the build in Bakelite / White metal. Credit goes to page 21 and 22 of this article.

Page 17

content.wisconsinhistory.org

View attachment 24633
View attachment 24634

A great article. Mine seems to be hard rubber over metal. When I was polishing it I could smell the rubber burning smell and it turned a very nice black color. That $5 mouthpiece in the article would be $89 plus tax today.
From what I found so far, Otto Link didn't make any hard rubber MPs until 1936. Do you reckon that the technology available before that were prone to problems like expansion?

 

[PigSquealer]

A great article. Mine seems to be hard rubber over metal. When I was polishing it I could smell the rubber burning smell and it turned a very nice black color. That $5 mouthpiece in the article would be $89 plus tax today.
From what I found so far, Otto Link didn't make any hard rubber MPs until 1936. Do you reckon that the technology available before that were prone to problems like expansion?

Bakelite has a very definitive unique smell when rubbed. I don’t think I’ve never had a HR mouthpiece produce a noticeable odor when cleaning / polishing.
I am very limited on my knowledge of mouthpieces and how they were made. So

 

[Hoosierken]

Bakelite has a very definitive unique smell when rubbed. I don’t think I’ve never had a HR mouthpiece produce a noticeable odor when cleaning / polishing.
I am very limited on my knowledge of mouthpieces and how they were made. So

It was pretty dull and showed the greenish oxidation where the ligature had not been. I first tried buffing it with a stiff wheel in a rotary tool. That is where the smell came from. I abandoned that and buffed it with fine steel wool and then polished it with a soft bit and polishing compound. It cleaned up nicely even if my picture is a bit blurry. There was no mistaking that burning rubber smell though.

 

[PigSquealer]

It was pretty dull and showed the greenish oxidation where the ligature had not been. I first tried buffing it with a stiff wheel in a rotary tool. That is where the smell came from. I abandoned that and buffed it with fine steel wool and then polished it with a soft bit and polishing compound. It cleaned up nicely even if my picture is a bit blurry. There was no mistaking that burning rubber smell though.

View attachment 24651

#WednesdayWisdom: How To Fix Green & Old Rubber Mouthpieces – Sax ProShop

saxproshop.com

 

[Hoosierken]

#WednesdayWisdom: How To Fix Green & Old Rubber Mouthpieces – Sax ProShop

saxproshop.com

Thank you, I had no seen that article. I thought about using very fine sandpaper but was afraid. I tested the fine steel wool and it worked okay. I may go over it again with the fine grit paper though as it could be a bit more shiny. I didn't wax it though, I was afraid of the taste.