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kevgermany

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I'll pass on that one, thanks. Mind you. it'd be fine on alto. And only 4 flats on tenor.
 

Young Col

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Nice one, Ron. But it led to a discusssion here about the notation of the key change. We thought - and my theory book confirms - that cancelling an existing key sig with naturals before the new key sig was arcane and only necessary if the new key was C Maj (or A min). It is not done in any of the music I have, except that Pete does it in Taming the Saxophone. Is it it still a used practice?
YC
 

aldevis

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and I am renting a flat. If I could, I would own 7, like Cb major.
 

kevgermany

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The other thing with this, assuming it's old music, is why not transpose it? A semitone up would work nicely. But I guess your point was the comment, not the key.
 

Tenor Viol

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Would F# major make you any happier?
:shocked: Nah. Generally string players prefer sharps to flats (partly because if you have say a 'd' string, then Db is going to be on the string below it, whereas D# will be on the D string.

Generally string players don't like too many sharps or flats. ;}
 

Tenor Viol

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Nice one, Ron. But it led to a discusssion here about the notation of the key change. We thought - and my theory book confirms - that cancelling an existing key sig with naturals before the new key sig was arcane and only necessary if the new key was C Maj (or A min). It is not done in any of the music I have, except that Pete does it in Taming the Saxophone. Is it it still a used practice?
YC
That's an interesting question.

Certainly in the music which I perform the most, which uses vocal scores of choral works, I would normally expect to see sharps and flats cancelled at a key change as required. However, most of the music that I'm performing was written 150 - 300 years ago with performing editions that are often at least 100 years old. I'll have a look at some New Novello Choral editions that I have to see if the practice has changed (these are new performing editions of major works using latest scholarship and improved translations gradually replacing the Victorian/Edwardian Novello editions still commonly in use).
 

Tenor Viol

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The other thing with this, assuming it's old music, is why not transpose it? A semitone up would work nicely. But I guess your point was the comment, not the key.
Keys such as Gb and C# major seem to have been a particular pecadillo for Victorian composers who seemed obsessed with them (e.g. Stanford's 'The Bluebird' try this). There is no reason why that particular piece could not be written either down or up a semi-tone to F or G.

You're right: if you are using equal temperament, then choice of key is largely irrelevant since they all sound the same. The choice of key would then be primarily to do with range and tessitura. Last Sunday I was singing with an ad-hoc choir at a choral evensong in the chapel at Cholmondeley castle (I only do that kind of thing on an if-it's-interesting ad-hoc basis - I've never been part of a church choir). We had a pot-boiler Victorian tune to sing, which was in Ab major, the wretched organist decided it was easier to play in Bb which of course ratcheted the vocal lines up by a whole tone, which put the bass's top Eb up to top F (above middle C) - :eek:
 

kevgermany

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Keys such as Gb and C# major seem to have been a particular pecadillo for Victorian composers who seemed obsessed with them (e.g. Stanford's 'The Bluebird' try this). There is no reason why that particular piece could not be written either down or up a semi-tone to F or G.

You're right: if you are using equal temperament, then choice of key is largely irrelevant since they all sound the same. The choice of key would then be primarily to do with range and tessitura. Last Sunday I was singing with an ad-hoc choir at a choral evensong in the chapel at Cholmondeley castle (I only do that kind of thing on an if-it's-interesting ad-hoc basis - I've never been part of a church choir). We had a pot-boiler Victorian tune to sing, which was in Ab major, the wretched organist decided it was easier to play in Bb which of course ratcheted the vocal lines up by a whole tone, which put the bass's top Eb up to top F (above middle C) - :eek:
Ouch - but then it gets back to the issue of what was the original pitch based on? A=470 anyone?
 

Tenor Viol

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Ouch - but then it gets back to the issue of what was the original pitch based on? A=470 anyone?
Ducks - minefield :)))

But would explain pitch of organ in local church which is about a semi-tone sharp. The strings could tune up but we had to take pity on the wind players we had in an orchestra we engaged for a concert with the chamber choir a couple of years ago.

We now hire a chamber organ if we need one for that venue....
 
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kevgermany

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I read somewhere that the pitch of an organ tends to creep up every time it's tuned, and over time this can be quite significant.
 

Tadpole

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Don't show this to my Church Elder, I'm always bitching about the keys I have to play in!!!!!! to explain, I play in a church band and have to transpose the songs as the rest of the band use the books provided, but as they all play in concert, it doesn't matter to them. However, the songs we use are mostly written by guitar players, and for some reaon, which escapes me, they write generally using the key of E. So when I play saxes, my Music looks like a relief map of Colditz!!!!
 

Tenor Viol

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Don't show this to my Church Elder, I'm always bitching about the keys I have to play in!!!!!! to explain, I play in a church band and have to transpose the songs as the rest of the band use the books provided, but as they all play in concert, it doesn't matter to them. However, the songs we use are mostly written by guitar players, and for some reaon, which escapes me, they write generally using the key of E. So when I play saxes, my Music looks like a relief map of Colditz!!!!
:))):))):)))
 

aldevis

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Don't show this to my Church Elder, I'm always bitching about the keys I have to play in!!!!!! to explain, I play in a church band and have to transpose the songs as the rest of the band use the books provided, but as they all play in concert, it doesn't matter to them. However, the songs we use are mostly written by guitar players, and for some reaon, which escapes me, they write generally using the key of E. So when I play saxes, my Music looks like a relief map of Colditz!!!!
C Melody is the answer!
An A clarinet could be even better (on my way now to collect my recent purchase), but hard to transpose first sight.
 
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Tenor Viol

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I read somewhere that the pitch of an organ tends to creep up every time it's tuned, and over time this can be quite significant.
Hmm, not come across that. :)

In the case I cited, the original organ is pre-1700. The Medieval church either fell down or burnt down in about 1690 and was replaced by a baroque Palladian style church in 1710. The new organ used some of the pipework from the old organ.

Of course there was no universal standard for tuning then, so who knows what the nominal pitch of the instrument was.:rolleyes:

The Victorians did unknown and undocumented things to the organ :shocked: which may have included shifting the ranks of pipes around to lift the pitch (i.e. old C# becomes D etc). This is the best guess informed view of organ builders who have looked at what can be done to bring the organ down to A440.

The pipework consists of some from pre 1710 organ, some from the 1710 organ, Victorian pipework, some C20th pipework (mostly replacements).

When the organ has been 'tuned' it is about 30 cents sharp of A440 at best. It then goes sharp over time to about 70 cents sharp of A440 i.e. about 2/3 of a semi-tone. This is just about impossible for woodwind and brass to tune to and not easy for strings either.

The organ is a two manual with pedals and is fully manual with trackers. The wind chest has electric blowers, so no need to have shifts of choir boys to power it ;}

It would be nice to get it updated to at least electro-pneumatic action and re-jig the pipework to sort out the tuning, but that's a lot of money (I'd guess at £100k - £200k). Anyway, I'm the chairman of the chamber choir that hires the church for concerts, not a member of the church, so I doubt if I have much influence over that :rolleyes:
 
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