Playing the saxophone Tonguing and vibrato

[jools28]

Hi all,

So I never really learnt how to do articulation properly since I never had a teacher I just play as a hobby. But I'm going back to basics and learning it properly this time. Basically I just want to check I'm getting to grips with it and have the right idea and am not overcomplicating things in my head.

So I've read the page on here on tonguing and I get what you are supposed to do and can do it I just wanted to double check when to use it. The only time I don't use it is when I'm playing legato, but should still use it at the beginning of the phrase and end, is this correct? So I should be tonguing (with a "tu" sound blocking the air off completely) all the time unless I'm playing legato?

I'm also attempting to learn vibrato and note bending, I can bend down about a tone from the high notes-is this enough for vibrato and/or note bending or should I be bending more than a tone?


Thank you!

 

[Yansalis]

Check out Ray Smith's video(s) on vibrato. For when to articulate, probably youtube would be best too as you need to hear examples.

 

[jools28]

@Yansalis thanks I hadn't seen any of his vids before, very helpful.

I've watched loads of tonguing vids,. they don't really explain when/where to use it though. I'd love to find a good example of a song where someone is demonstrating when and when not to tongue...

 

[lydian]

Legato notes are still tongued. You’re thinking of slurred notes.

 

[jools28]

@lydian hmm I thought they were the same thing...

 

[lydian]

@lydian hmm I thought they were the same thing...

From the master himself:

Tonguing & Articulation on the Saxophone

Learn how to articulate well, using your tongue to actually improve your tone

tamingthesaxophone.com

I don't know how they do things in the UK, but in the US we lightly articulate legato notes that don't have a slur mark and don't articulate notes that are slurred.

 

[jools28]

@lydian yeh I mean that's what I'm going off, he has slurring in brackets next to legato in that very tutorial. Although there seems to be two types, so I guess that's where I'm confused?

 

[lydian]

I let the slur mark tell me whether to tongue or not. You can do the same. Legato is a more general term that's essentially the opposite of stacatto, i.e., not separated. If I see the word "legato" and no slur marks, I tongue. Similarly if I see legato marks "-" over the noteheads, I also tongue.

Maybe this will better illustrate the point. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Similarly, all slurs are legato, but not all legato notes are slurs.

Try not to over think it.

Unfortunately legato or not is only the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of different articulations, way too many to get into here.

 

[jools28]

@lydian I usually play by ear but it's an idea to start looking at sheet music to tell me. So as a general rule tongue unless it's a slur? Well that makes it somewhat easier.

Unfortunately legato or not is only the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of different articulations, way too many to get into here.

Yeh I know, I'm getting a bit confused. I only wanna play pop songs so I just need to know what I can generally get away with playing most of the time. I don't play jazz or in an orchestra or anything (obviously!) so it's just a matter of the basics I need to get down.

 

[jools28]

So for this song-tongue all the bits except where the slur lines are? Just to make 100% sure..

 

[lydian]

On this tune, I treat the big slur marks as just phrase marks. Being a ballad, I play most of the notes legato (lightly tongued). I try to follow the vocal, or at least my sax interpretation of it. Charts like this try to approximate the very rubato rhythms of the vocal, but don't quite hit the mark. So it's perfectly fine to not follow the rhythms strictly, as long as the phrases are in time.

If I'm playing solo off a lead sheet or a chart like this, I really just treat the written music as a framework and try not to do a strict interpretation. If this were an exercise or a classical piece, I'd be very strict and precise, but not with something like this.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The term legato does not in itself mean don’t tongue or articulate, because on many instruments of course the tongue is not used. It basically means connected and fluid, and the best way on a wind instrument is to slur and I’d say in most cases (again especially in an ensemble) that is how it is best interpreted.

Getting it 100% correct only really only matters hugely if you are playing in an ansemble where everyone needs to be tight and together, or else if you are playing solo and being examined on how technically correct you are. If you are playing solo there can always be freedom of expression as @lydian says. But still it’s important to learn the terminology and technique.

However if I do want to be technically correct I view a slur mark across several notes as meaning the first note is tongued and the others not, apart from to close off the last one.

This is my definition of legato when the term is used by itself, although there are types of legato where you can tongue very lightly (soft tonguing) but still so as not to make any kind of break between notes. You might see this notated with tenuto marks with or without the slur marking.

However if I am writing something for saxophone and notate a slur and no other marking I mean it to be not tongued. If I don’t want it slurred, or if the notes are all full length but lightly tongued, I would usually mark tenuto without a slur line. That avoids any confusion.

It gets confusing when you see staccato dots or tenuto lines along with a slur. To me dots and slur is meaningless, the tenuto lines and slur means soft tonguing and absolutely no break between notes, but really the slur is superfluous but maybe useful to help indicate a phrase, and I think I did that on the articulation page ad it is helpful but strictly necessary IMO (need to check that)

 

[Pete Thomas]

I don't know how they do things in the UK,

There shouldn't be any difference, ie no UK vs US way of doing things.

but in the US we lightly articulate legato notes that don't have a slur mark

However if something is marked legato, IMO it does not necessarily mean you should lightly tongue and not slur it. As you said above "Similarly, all slurs are legato, but not all legato notes are slurs." So legato can include slurring but not necessarily. S it's not clear and you can interpret, but if in an ensemble I'd say it's best to make it whatever ends up with the best uniformity and sothe easiest is to slur, and at faster tempos that's often all you can do anyway.

If I see the word "legato" and no slur marks, I tongue.

Yes, you can absolutely do that, but you could also slur, whatever country you live in 🙂

 

[lydian]

Yes, you can absolutely do that, but you could also slur, whatever country you live in 🙂

I don't think anybody would be able to tell if I'm slurring or lightly tonguing anyway. So I'll stick with tonguing unless I see a slur mark or think I need to slur in order to blend with the rest of the band/section. Haven't gotten any complaints from any of my conductors in the past 40+ years of doing it that way.

 

[Dr G]

I agree with most of the above discussion, and will add this. Legato regards the length of the note, not the start of it. It refers to the connectedness of notes, and an absence of space between them. Slurring is an articulation. The first note of a phrase can be legato, yet not slurred. The note following it may be slurred, yet not given its full length.

If a phrase says “legato”, then that indicates to me to use a gentle articulation with the emphasis on a flowing sense of notes. It could be a string of the same pitches, thus indicating a gentle pulsing sense.

 

[jools28]

On this tune, I treat the big slur marks as just phrase marks. Being a ballad, I play most of the notes legato (lightly tongued). I try to follow the vocal, or at least my sax interpretation of it. Charts like this try to approximate the very rubato rhythms of the vocal, but don't quite hit the mark. So it's perfectly fine to not follow the rhythms strictly, as long as the phrases are in time.

If I'm playing solo off a lead sheet or a chart like this, I really just treat the written music as a framework and try not to do a strict interpretation. If this were an exercise or a classical piece, I'd be very strict and precise, but not with something like this.

So when you lightly tongue are you saying du du and still hitting the reed but not enough to actually block the air? I'm so confused now having to think about when and when not to tongue! Because I play by ear and don't usually think about tonguing.

You have explained really well though, thanks for your help. I also loved your interpretation.

@Pete Thomas thanks Pete that's very helpful. I guess it's just a matter of getting used to tonguing and feeling when and when not to use it. I'm so aware of my tongue now when I play lol, it's putting me off a bit but I suppose it's just practice. I actually feel like I'm supposed to tongue every note now as a default which is probably wrong too, but overthinking it I guess...

 

[Dr G]

So when you lightly tongue are you saying du du and still hitting the reed but not enough to actually block the air? I'm so confused now having to think about when and when not to tongue! Because I play by ear and don't usually think about tonguing.

You have explained really well though, thanks for your help. I also loved your interpretation.

@Pete Thomas thanks Pete that's very helpful. I guess it's just a matter of getting used to tonguing and feeling when and when not to use it. I'm so aware of my tongue now when I play lol, it's putting me off a bit but I suppose it's just practice. I actually feel like I'm supposed to tongue every note now as a default which is probably wrong too, but overthinking it I guess...

If you are ”playing by ear”, it should leave you even better able to listen to your sound and focus on how you want to present the notes.

Awareness is the first step. Enjoy the path and always be musical.

 

[jools28]

@Dr G yeh but I usually do it without thinking "is this slurred" I just play it, but I've been doing it all wrong and now I have to think "how much am I supposed to be tonguing" or "tongue the first bit" I dunno it's just a lot to think about but I've just started playing correctly (at least I hope it's correct now!) so it's not second nature yet.

 

[Littleboyblue]

Knowing the piece would help but two different people can read that same piece and still tongue it at different times

 

[Dr G]

@Dr G yeh but I usually do it without thinking "is this slurred" I just play it, but I've been doing it all wrong and now I have to think "how much am I supposed to be tonguing" or "tongue the first bit" I dunno it's just a lot to think about but I've just started playing correctly (at least I hope it's correct now!) so it's not second nature yet.

Well, start by tonguing the beginning of each phrase. Am I correct to posit that you typically don’t tongue at all, but instead rely on a breath attack? Have some Fun with Phrasing. Practice a phrase you know. Now articulate it randomly but mindfully. Break it into subgroups of notes, and lightly tongue the first note of each subgroup. It’ll make more sense when you try it.

If you practice scales, you can just make up rules for each time you play them. Tongue every group of four, or the first and second of each group of four, etc.

Knowing the piece would help but two different people can read that same piece and still tongue it at different times

And hopefully each would hear the difference. One will certainly sound more musical than the other.

The path to change starts with awareness.