Tone Tone production. Cursed by genetics?

[jimmylh]

So how much do you think the size and shape of your oral cavities has in your final sound? I've been playing for 10 months. I practice hours a day, sometimes more than once a day. Countless hours spent doing long tones and developing breath support. I take lessons every week and have since I started. My mid range sounds dull and lifeless. I think I sound decent on B2 down and from about F2 and up. I'm starting to wonder if my oral properties are such I'll never get a beautiful tone at those frequencies. Any thoughts?

 

[jafo50]

Jimmy,

I've listened to some of your soundcloud clips and I think for someone playing only 10 months your tone sounds fine to me. Why do you think you have a tone problem? Is it your own perception or has another person listening to you play commented about it?

Jafo50

 

[BigMartin]

Have you, by any chance, been reading Larry Teal? I've had some stick for criticising his book on here, but he goes to great trouble (diagrams and all) to say what comes over to me as "if tyou haven't got the ideal physiology, you might as well forget it". I don't believe a word of it. It takes years to get a good sound out of any instrument, including the piano. I'm sure you're doing fine.

 

[Jay]

Also I think you can change your tone quite a lot with different reeds and mouthpieces.
I think there's a lot to try before worrying that your mouth is just the wrong shape 🙂

 

[fibracell]

But...I think you have a core sound that is basically you. You can develop that sound to be a mature sax sound, but no matter what you change with mpc/reeds etc. there will always be your core generic sound. That's why some folks will never sound like Sanborn, but might sound a bit Desmond(y).

 

[BigMartin]

But...I think you have a core sound that is basically you. You can develop that sound to be a mature sax sound, but no matter what you change with mpc/reeds etc. there will always be your core generic sound. That's why some folks will never sound like Sanborn, but might sound a bit Desmond(y).

It's hard to be certain about these things, of course. But I suspect at least some of that is due to personal preference. If I want to sound like Desmond, my sound will gravitate towards that as I practise, even if I think I want to sound like Sanborn. We're not always conscious of what we really like. (As it happens, I'd rather sound like Phil Woods than either of them. As it is, i think I'm just getting to the point where I sound like a saxophone).

 

[Colin the Bear]

We get what we're given and can only adapt and adjust to get the best we can. Being dissatisfied with your sound means it will improve. It's a good place to be. I think the saxophone is one of those instruments that is so versatile and expressive that as a player we always want more.

It used to annoy me when everything comes together, reed, ambient acoustics, playing well, saxophone behaving, being in the zone and then some body comes up and asks "Is that a special mouthpiece you're playing? Mine sounds so harsh." I just smile now and say yes.

Playing on your own can lead to a lot of introspection about tone. If you play in a band where the trumpet is flat and the trombone tries to drown him out, your solo will sound great just being in tune. Listening to recorded music can give you a false idea of what a saxophone actually sounds like in the flesh and from behind the mouthpiece.

 

[Merryfisher]

So how much do you think the size and shape of your oral cavities has in your final sound? I've been playing for 10 months. I practice hours a day, sometimes more than once a day. Countless hours spent doing long tones and developing breath support. I take lessons every week and have since I started. My mid range sounds dull and lifeless. I think I sound decent on B2 down and from about F2 and up. I'm starting to wonder if my oral properties are such I'll never get a beautiful tone at those frequencies. Any thoughts?

i think you are being a bit hard on yourself. 10 months is not a long time in the grand scheme of things. imo it takes years of practice, playing with others, experimenting with mpc's & reed combos. gradually thru time, effort and experimentation, listening and talking to other players you will begin to find 'your voice' so to speak - one that is expressive of you and the years of effort you have put in. And even then, you will listen to other players and wish you could sound like them, but then again, there will be those who would'nt mind sounding like you, Its all about finding your own 'voice'

 

[jbtsax]

Have you, by any chance, been reading Larry Teal? I've had some stick for criticising his book on here, but he goes to great trouble (diagrams and all) to say what comes over to me as "if tyou haven't got the ideal physiology, you might as well forget it". I don't believe a word of it. It takes years to get a good sound out of any instrument, including the piano. I'm sure you're doing fine.

This is what Larry Teal writes in "The Art of Saxophone Playing" in the chapter entitled Embouchure.

Most people have a slight over-bite, which adjusts to the embouchure easily. If the overbite is extreme, however, it will be come a definite handicap,as the mouthpiece will have to be inserted too far in order to bring the lower lip to the proper position. The embouchure placement for saxophone calls for the upper and lower teeth to be in alignment. If this cannot be done in comfort, it is questionable whether the individual should attempt serious saxophone study.

The underbite. The "lantern jaw" shape is an advantage up to a point, especially for the large instruments, as it allows the lower lip to assume the proper position without a wide opening of the mouth. An extreme underbite condition requires very little insertion of the upper lip to compensate for the correct lower lip placement, which might cause difficulty when attempting to adjust to a small mouthpiece.

Judgement of the foregoing should be made on the basis of the severity of the malformation. While on occasion one will meet a fine performer who has overcome extreme conditions, it is a wise policy to examine the facial contour when advising a student as to the selection of the proper instrument.

One should note that he is speaking in terms of "serious study" of the saxophone, not someone just "noodling around" on it for fun. I taught hundreds of beginning saxophone students over the years and Teal is right on the mark about the difficulty players with extreme "overbites" have with their tone production.

 

[jimmylh]

@jafo50: Nobody has ever said anything about it, it's what I think I sound like.

@BigMartin: I've not heard of Larry Teal. I just figured the size and shape of the oral cavity must have some bearing on tone. Kind of like the resonance of a tuned cavity in electronics .

@jbtsax: I think I have a pretty normal bite. No under bite at all, but not perfectly lined up either. I fall into the slight over bite category. I'm just a hobby player and that's all I'll ever be, but I am dedicated to achieve the best I can be. I think I'm making progress on every aspect except tone quality.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So how much do you think the size and shape of your oral cavities has in your final sound?

You sound fine, in fact you sound great for the amount of time you've been playing.

As people progress and get better, they get more critical and forget how far they've actually come.

It happens to everyone so just keep up up the practice and good work.

 

[jbtsax]

I second everything Pete said. There is an excellent exercise to improve one's sound that I learned from Ryan Lillywhite who is on the staff at Cannonball Saxophones. Unfortunately the video he made is not working at the present time, but I can describe the method he uses.

You play a middle C (C2) using low C's fingering and over blowing to the 1st overtone an octave higher. Then you switch to the regular C fingering and compare the sound. The goal is to play the regular fingered C2 and make it sound as rich and full all the low C harmonic by opening the oral cavity and using more breath support (air pressure). You can do this on the notes B and Bb as well.

 

[spike]

Playing for 10 months - You sound pretty good to me Jimmy - keep at it.
I'd been playing for about 30 years - about two thirds of that time full time pro - when I decided I didn't like my sound. I didn't change my mouthpiece, reeds, set-up - nothin' - I don't subscribe to that way of thinking - I simply practiced for 3 years solid working on my sound. And - It took 3 years before I was reasonably happy. If you don't like your sound - work on it. It does take time, it's good to be critical but don't lose sleep over it. Just keep at it.

 

[Juju]

Don't worry, 10 months is nothing, it'll take years and even then your idea of the ideal sound may change. I started with flute lessons about 10 months ago after struggling away for years and I'm only beginning to make a noise that I can just about live with. But I realise that after 10months I'm still a total beginner. Progress is slow and I'm far too impatient.
Maybe it helps if you keep a diary of recordings and compare what you sounded like when you started off - you'll be pleasantly surprised..

Juju

 

[kevgermany]

I second everything Pete said. There is an excellent exercise to improve one's sound that I learned from Ryan Lillywhite who is on the staff at Cannonball Saxophones. Unfortunately the video he made is not working at the present time, but I can describe the method he uses.

You play a middle C (C2) using low C's fingering and over blowing to the 1st overtone an octave higher. Then you switch to the regular C fingering and compare the sound. The goal is to play the regular fingered C2 and make it sound as rich and full all the low C harmonic by opening the oral cavity and using more breath support (air pressure). You can do this on the notes B and Bb as well.

I hadn't come across this before, tried it yesterday. Good exercise!