Ligatures Theo wanne "Manta" Tenor mouthpiece Ligature

scotsman · Oct 30, 2018

For a while now I have been playing a Theo Wanne "Manta" Tenor mouthpiece.. I like my reeds to "POP" when I suck them with my hand over the MP end. However lately I have been finding that the reeds don't do this. I tried different reeds. Tried flattening

the lower table part of the reed on fine sandpaper which worked for a while but then reverted to the initial problem.. Today I dismantled the lig and put the pressure plate on a flat tile.. ho ho the plate was warped.. I straightened it out and reverted to "Popping " Reeds... Anyone else had this problem? I now have the "Link on Steriods" sound... Regards

scotsman · Oct 30, 2018

That should read a TW Mantra.. OOPS

David Roach · Nov 1, 2018

I never got on with the Wanne integrated ligatures: in fact I don't like integrated ligs full stop. During the times when I was trying Theo's metal pieces I always had problems with reeds not sealing unless I used the ligature on the most forward setting, but even then there were issues. (I never had a problem on the ebonite pieces with the 'Enlightened' lig).
Although you seem to have it sorted now, you could try using a fabric lig and see if the problem reoccurs. I have been using GF System Ligs for a few years now with complete success, but there is always a subjective (and minor objective) pay-off between different styles of ligature.

scotsman · Nov 1, 2018

Thanks David.. Nice to hear that others have had the same problem.. Im goind to make up an aluminium pressure plate to fit the curve of the reeds. (Addagio Jazz 2hard,), and see what happens. Will report back.. I must say that the blurb about the sound is about right. BTW.. Regards..

scotsman · Nov 1, 2018

hi All.. Just spent an hour in the workshop making up a mild steel pressure plate for the Mantra Mouthpiece.... What a difference.!!! popping like a champagne cork.. Now to make it look a little more elegant !! Sorry about the blurring but you get the idea... Thanks to All..

Ivan · Nov 1, 2018

In focus would be 100 times better to admire your handiwork

Interesting that the original plate bends easily... but it then does look a tad flimsy

Phil · Nov 1, 2018

If I were to wager I would guess you over tighten your ligs

That will warp all but the most extreme plates.

If the table is flat...and Theo makes flat tables, cranking the lig is a bad thing. One only needs to tighten a lig on a good setup just enough to keep the reed in place. Its not a vise.

...and for what its worth...over tightening ligs on HR pieces will ruin the mouthpiece.

scotsman · Nov 1, 2018

That's an interesting theory Phil. All I can say is that the mod works...BTW. its a great mouthpiece...

Phil · Nov 1, 2018

Ive had to rebild hr pieces that have been cranked on for long periods of time and the setup left on 24/7. Tables will become convex across the length of the piece...literally squeezed out of shape.

I know those plates well. It takes a lot to bend them. Some are thinner than others but that is necessary to get a different tone and response. Much like the fl heavy brass lig feels different from the fl cage lig.

altissimo · Nov 2, 2018

nice work, better than that flimsy looking piece of brass - just keep it oiled a bit so it doesn't go rusty...

if someone creates a lig with a large grip thumbwheel like that, then they must expect people to tighten it up a lot. I can't see that it'd do any harm to a brass mouthpiece. I think you'd have to apply a lot more force than you could do by hand to get any deformation

I was a bit worried that my precious Lawton may be warping under the strain of having a reed clamped to it all the time, so I just checked it using a toolmaker's straight edge accurate to 0.0001 of an inch and there was the faintest sliver of light visible mid way up the table, so it's ever so slightly concave. I've no idea if it was like that when I got it.
I checked the Bari star reed and that's also ever so slightly concave...

if a ligature is exerting a constant pressure on the table of a mouthpiece and it's focused more in the middle than the extreme ends, you'd expect the table to go a bit concave and not convex

Keep Blowing · Nov 2, 2018

David Roach said:
I have been using GF System Ligs for a few years now with complete success

I have pretty much always used a 2 screw ligature, but have recently moved onto the GF System Ligs, they are great!

rhysonsax · Nov 2, 2018

scotsman said:
hi All.. Just spent an hour in the workshop making up a mild steel pressure plate for the Mantra Mouthpiece.... What a difference.!!! popping like a champagne cork.. Now to make it look a little more elegant !! Sorry about the blurring but you get the idea... Thanks to All..
View attachment 11699

Hi @scotsman what is the silver-coloured ring on the shank of the mouthpiece - is that original or a modification someone has added ?

Rhys

David Roach · Nov 2, 2018

Phil said:
I've had to rebuild hr pieces that have been cranked on for long periods of time and the setup left on 24/7. Tables will become convex across the length of the piece...literally squeezed out of shape............

I was warned about that by Bill Wrothall when Rovners first came in, so I got into the habit of backing the lig off a little if I'm leaving a reed in place for any length of time.
I think the over-tightening bug comes from playing badly made or warped pieces, perhaps as a student. So many off the shelf pieces I played in the 70s were badly made.

However, it doesn't answer the question of why some people find Theo's metal pieces inconsistent. Maybe I was over-tightening? Trouble is, on a gig I have to be able to make quick alterations to mouthpiece position, and if the lig is not tight enough the reed invariably slips, which is a real pain.

scotsman · Nov 2, 2018

Hi Rhys.. I used the mouthpiece on my Conn but couldnt get it in tune without backing off the neck cork so made up an extesion sleeve to enable it to be used on Conns and Selmers.. It works fine.. Regards

Phil · Nov 2, 2018

One can definitely tighten well on a metal mouthpiece. I am just suggesting that with a flat table cranking down will bend a plate and even strip screws. The big wheel is mostly for comfort. A small wheel is not pleasing on the fingers at all. If your reed is not warped it should not take more than a nice firm twist to keep it in place.

Even though I work with Theo on my metal pieces I cant speak to all is work. I can say that the pieces I get to use for blanks are frighteningly accurate. I use these plates on the Enlightened lig and never had a customer with a problem.

Rovner and pure band type fabric or leather ligs can cause problems. Some of them have pressure plates. That helps a lot. In my experience those without often fail to provide a good healthy seal. This leads players to crank them tighter and on HR you get problems.

Ive seen guys crank so hard on Theo's liberty lig that they warp the mounting holes. This is not a design problem. It is a user problem.

Again...at no time is a lig a vise. If you find you have to crank the thing to hell you either have a table problem or a reed problem.

There are a lot of good ligs out there but they will all fail with abuse. FL ligs can come unsoldered, Brancher wire ligs can snap... 2 screw ligs can strip. Most all of these have parts made of brass and it is inherently soft. I know when I play my pieces I just finger tight it without much pressure and the reed never feels unstable. Pretend its the screw on your tenon. You wouldnt crank the daylights out of it (I hope).

altissimo · Nov 2, 2018

I'm not sure exactly what constitiutes 'overtightening' - the difference between just tight enough to stop the lig and reed slipping when I'm wiggling the mouthpiece onto the cork and so tight I can't turn it any more without using pliers is only a fraction of a turn on my ordinary standard metal two screw ligature. I assume with the 'thumbscrew' syle ones there's a limit to how far you can go.

I've not got access to strain gauges to measure the pressure exerted on a mouthpiece by a ligature and I doubt there's much data in the annals of materials science on the long term effects of pressure on the dimensional stability of hard rubber., but my guess is that you'd have to apply serious amounts of force on a lig screws for decades to get any deformation of the table - most conventional ligs on HR mouthpieces are going to exert pressure fairly evenly around the circumference of the mouthpiece rather than just on the table alone.

HR is an archaic material that seems to be rarely used outside of the world of traditional saxophone and tobacco pipe mouthpieces - more modern polymers have superceded it elsewhere.
The warping of hard rubber may be a more complex issue than long term ligature pressure. To some extent all moulded and cast items have potential problems due to stresses that may have built up in the moulding process.
Hard rubber is moulded using a lot of heat and pressure and can sometimes be inconsistent, so I don't know to what extent it might warp anyway, if left alone in a darkened room. I doubt that any research data exists because HR hasn't generally been used for precision components apart from sax mouthpieces..
I'm not denying the observations of experts who work on mouthpieces for a living, but I am aware that cause and effect are tricky devils to pin down and it's in the nature of the material universe to be more complex than we'd like it to be.

The worst problem I ever had with tightening a ligature was due to the mouthpiece being too smooth....
when I bought a brand new Jody Jazz 'HR' alto mouthpiece, I dropped my lig and broke one of the screws, so went out and bought a new one, fitted the reed and in the process of putting the mouthpiece on the neck cork the lig slid off in my hand. I put it back on and tightened it until it wouldn't tighten any more and it still came off. I realised that both the inside surface of the lig and the outer surface of the mpc were too smooth to grip properly. I had to stick a piece of tape to the mpc for several months until the build up of dirt, corrosion and wear and tear gave it enough surface friction...

rhysonsax · Nov 2, 2018

scotsman said:
Hi Rhys.. I used the mouthpiece on my Conn but couldnt get it in tune without backing off the neck cork so made up an extesion sleeve to enable it to be used on Conns and Selmers.. It works fine.. Regards

Thanks @scotsman - my Theo Wanne Durga baritone suffers from the same issue - it is too short. I see that the latest Durga baritone pieces now have a significantly longer shank.

Rhys