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- 5,841
Thanks for the explanation.
Here you are using the term "socket" and elsewhere "chimney" and also "tone hole" - do you mean the same thing by all these ?
Rhys
Saxophones the obscure, the overlooked
- Thread starter peterpick
- Start date
Thanks for the explanation.
Here you are using the term "socket" and elsewhere "chimney" and also "tone hole" - do you mean the same thing by all these ?
Rhys
- 1,940
Yes,
That was intentional. Depending where you are on the globe, all three terms are valid.
Martin Committee tone holes are different compared to Indiana, Handcraft from the 20's, Handcraft Standard and special ..... .
Some info from a 1959 Magna about tone holes. We tried to silver solder a committee tone holes instead of soft solder. "Too much heat" said the guy that did it,
Some info from a 1959 Magna about tone holes. We tried to silver solder a committee tone holes instead of soft solder. "Too much heat" said the guy that did it,
Y'all are acting like the shape of those tone holes is something brought down from the mountain chiseled on a couple of stone tablets, like "Martins are shaped this way and York this way and Couturier this way, and as it was so shall it be for ever and ever, world without end."
In the real world, the tops of tone holes were turned on the piece of tubing on a lathe, probably either with a form tool or a cam-operated turret lathe. You want to change the contour of that top shape, someone makes a new drawing, the toolsetter grinds a new shape on the form tools or grinds a new cam.
I wouldn't expect there would be frequent changes unless there were really a good reason to do so, but these shapes are NOT fixed in stone. They're design choices that can be changed, and changed with relatively little trouble.
In the real world, the tops of tone holes were turned on the piece of tubing on a lathe, probably either with a form tool or a cam-operated turret lathe. You want to change the contour of that top shape, someone makes a new drawing, the toolsetter grinds a new shape on the form tools or grinds a new cam.
I wouldn't expect there would be frequent changes unless there were really a good reason to do so, but these shapes are NOT fixed in stone. They're design choices that can be changed, and changed with relatively little trouble.
Well, if you go to, for example, the Handy & Harman catalog, you will find that there are probably a couple dozen standard soldering/brazing alloys in common use for brass; and each one has different values for solidus (when it's completely solid) and liquidus (when it's completely liquid) and working range (that region between solidus and liquidus when the filler material is "slushy"). If you use a high temp brazing alloy intended for Monel and try to use it on brass, you're likely to overheat the workpieces.
We've all read that "King toneholes were hard soldered (whatever that means) and Martin were soft soldered" - of course they were both joining tone holes with ~1mm thickness to the thinner sheet metal of the body - but we don't really know what solders were actually used.
- 18,891
No but it should easy to find out what kind of temperature required to remove them ie at what point solidus turns into liquidus. If it matters. But maybe it does if there are pillars and ribs that you want to stay in place. I would think whatever stuff got soldered onto the body first (a) would need a higher temperature, so stuff soldered on later (b) may need a lower temperature to stop stuff (a) from falling off in the process.
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Exactly. The sensible thing to do is to use a higher temp filler for tone holes than for posts and ribs. I'd be frankly astonished if that weren't done in all the factories using soldered tone holes; but the problem comes in when Joe Handyman hits it with his torch and overheats stuff and the tone holes fall off. In the factory with professionals doing the work, they knew how to take a tube with tone holes on and solder ribs and posts to it without losing the sockets.
Frankly if I were to set up such an operation today I'd do all the tone hole work in an oven with controlled temp.
- 18,891
But then what happens if the tone holes need resoldering?
Martin changed the formula at least two times. I don't know why. Many sax techs says that Martin's problem with soft soldered tone holes would be cured if they had used silver solder (higher temp) instead of soft solder. The guy that did the experimental soldering use to work in implant industry (knees .....). He told me that the soft soldering is fine on Martin saxes. I have five committee saxes 1938-1962 and all the tone holes are intact. The one we soldered on was a wreck (banana).
Woodpad
Member
- 702
Is it known which choices Eppelsheim made for the tone holes on his instruments?
Wire all the posts down and heat sink the bejeezus out of everything that could be affected.
Heck, I've put a brace on a neck and didn't even have to replace the neck cork. Heatsinking is your friend.
- 18,891
All that makes perfect sense, but from I remember when @Stephen Howard was resoldering the failed tone holes on my Martin Comm III he was using soft solder. Maybe I'm wrong it has been known and I always carry a supply of edible hats around these days.
- 5,841
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Very little effect until you get to brazing (cherrry red) temps. At that point the thin sheet metal could warp (as in auto body repair). Bells necks and body tubes are hard brazed at high temps when they're rolled from sheet, so it's not that big a risk. But that's why I was suggesting that the higher temp filler used for tone holes, the better idea it would be to do that as a furnace braze operation. Doing it in a controlled atmosphere would also reduce scaling and cleanup.
I don't know which manufacturers have/haven't done which joints at which temps by hand held torch, furnace, or fixtured torches.
I don't know which manufacturers have/haven't done which joints at which temps by hand held torch, furnace, or fixtured torches.
Stephen Howard
Well-Known Member
- 3,697
Much depends on the state/mass of the metal prior to soldering, the accuracy of the setup and the clamping/locating methods used. And, of course, the working temperature and the proximity effect from adjacent soldering jobs.
Lots of lovely variables.
You could account for these - but that's a hell of a lot of work, and it's far cheaper to build in some leeway and sort it all out after the event. I've worked on enough minty-fresh Martins to lead me to believe that some dressing of the toneholes was applied post-assembly. Not perhaps as much as required but at least just enough.
Martin (etc.) toneholes have an advantage in that they're usually quite hefty; so the same tonehole job on a Martin and, say, an Adolphe Sax, will yield very different results at a given temperature. Granted, it won't be by much - but when it comes to toneholes anything much more than a couple of thou off nominal can be a big deal.
I always add a bit of 'wastage' to the height when making new toneholes and then bring them into spec once all the heat-work is done and dusted.
As for pseudo rolls (aka tonehole rings), any issues that arise post-soldering are likely to be down to one of a couple of reasons. In the first instance the toneholes were not level prior to 'ringing'; or they were level and no account was made for subsequent distortion. Neither prospect is encouraging - and the results are near enough the same.
peterpick
Member
it's all fascinating. i never had any problem with martin toneholes, i had to patch a little gap on a soprano once, it was fine, apart from that they seem solid. according to my information drawn toneholes were introduced to europe later than USA, i have old french horns with soldered toneholes which are not always well done. my memory fails me of course, but i think beaugnier introduced them in the 1930's, meaning most lyrists and guenot/douchet horns would have soldered toneholes. i am not going to knock any off to find out.
if anyone wants to talk to me about these old french horns i am available at peterrichardpick<<at>>gmail.com
if anyone wants to talk to me about these old french horns i am available at peterrichardpick<<at>>gmail.com
peterpick
Member
is that not permitted? shame!
at g
at g
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