support Tutorials CDs PPT mouthpieces

Teal vs Allard embouchure

Which saxophone embouchure do you use or prefer?

  • The "Teal Embouchure" described in "The Art of Saxophone Playing"

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • The "Allard Embouchure" taught by Joe Allard and his students who are teachers

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • Other: Please Describe

    Votes: 4 28.6%

  • Total voters
    14

jbtsax

in memoriam 1947 - 2023
Café Supporter
Messages
9,207
Locality
Beautiful Springville, Utah USA
In a recent discussion about the Teal vs Allard embouchure, the question was posed about how many members use one or the other. This poll is designed to help answer that question. If you chose "other" please describe by posting in this thread.
 
Funny enough I was taught by the same teacher both Teal and Allard had. Merle Johnston was a top sax player in the 1920s/30s and was responsible for what at that time was called the "New York school of sax playing". He taught many top players from the 1930s up to the 1960s. For Merle's style of teaching the lip is well tucked under which gives a softer tone with fewer harmonics. I alter this according to the style of music being played and mouthpiece I'm using, so wind up being "other" category.

I've railed against teachers who insist that students start out with an extreme extended lip as they have no control over their tone. If you can develop tone first it's easier to move the lip out and retain more control. Lip out playing also makes subtoning very difficult which is often a good subtle technique if you're playing the bottom of the horn and don't want to be harsh and "boomy". As far as I'm concerned there is no single (right or wrong) technique as it depends on what you want to sound like. I don't look in a mirror when playing so have no idea what my face muscles are doing so can't comment on that aspect. I don't think I smile or do anything too odd. I get compliments on my tone (but never my technique), so don't worry about conforming to any pedagogical embouchure precepts.
 
Other: Please Describe

"You know how to play sax didn't you, Steve? You put the mouthpiece between your lips and blow"

CubNFGcXEAA5t3c.jpg
 
Last edited:
Other: lip out (barely not extreme)
I prefer Teal over Allard but both seem to assume lower lip over teeth. I believe I do what Dr Wally describes except with lip out. Is that Teal or must lower lip be over teeth?

I reject lip over teeth as unnecessarily painful (especially for beginners), limiting practice time. Also, cosmetically, I don't want a fat lip which was one of the reasons I stopped playing clarinet!

I did not find intonation nor fatigue an issue when beginning but then I have strong lips/cheeks from excessive talking! (My Grandfather claimed I was infected with a grammaphone needle!)
 
Last edited:
George Carzone:

rest your teeth on the top and apply the bare minimum amount of lower lip pressure required to make a sound.

That is closest to what I do. My lower lip may be slightly over my teeth but I don't notice because I don't engage my teeth.
 
@Pete Thomas opines there is no correct embouchure and quotes 3 types from a book by Ben Davis. Pete says he began with lower lip over teeth but later adopted lower lip next to teeth. Pete says he personally finds this more flexible. Pete's article has no mention of Allard or Teal. Davis does say "O" shape.

 
@Neffmusic has written a video lesson on embouchure. The article introducing the lesson contains 24 photographs of saxophone greats. There is no mention of Allard or Teal but all photos seem to show lip-out embouchure.

I started with the Teal embouchure and even in college for classical sax was using my lip over bottom teeth. I was playing like 6-8 hours a day and my bottom lip was hurting and actually bleeding a lot. My instructor didn't offer any advice except to give me some dental material to fold over my bottom teeth. It did help as I remember.

After that I transferred to Berklee in Boston and at some point changed my embouchure to more of an Allard approach not sure when. I was studying with Joe Viola during this time but I can't remember if he taught me this and that was his approach or I just kind of went there on my own. I might have learned it from George Garzone now that I think about it. Can't remember.......

With the Allard approach to embouchure I could now seemingly play endlessly which is of benefit when you have a weekend with 5 gigs to play back to back........
 
The Teal embouchure is surely a classical clarinet embouchure, or further a classical single reed embouchure which surely originated before Larry Teal claimed it.

There are, and have been terrific players using all the variables - teeth involved/less involved, lip position and jaw position/movement. How much a certain embouchure needs to be mitigated by tongue shape(s) is interesting too.

I also think that we can't ignore that the difference in amount of mouthpiece in the mouth and whether the lower lip is placed beyond (or seemingly way nearer the end of the mouthpiece) the point that the tip opening starts on a given mouthpiece. Occasionally I see players with a big sound seemingly perching on the end of the mouthpiece.

As much as differing techniques can all sound great, certain styles/genres require less dexterity from the embouchure. The sort of lines with large intervals that Brecker played so often with great speed - do we think that this is made more possible by the lip out approach - or certainly looser than having a near clarinet embouchure?

Wherever the lip is placed - neutral: neither inwards or outwards (just place the mouthpiece on the lip) or lip out - philosophy seems to have moved to a loose setup, playing very low in pitch - just above the point of having no integrity to the note. Lip and facial muscles have a greater part to play than having teeth/jaw involvement.
 
The Teal embouchure is surely a classical clarinet embouchure, or further a classical single reed embouchure which surely originated before Larry Teal claimed it.

Some unverified historical context:

The material in Teal's book was written in circa 1960. It was written in the Summy-Birchard series that provided handbook information for students and teachers. Remember that this was a time when most universities had the clarinet teacher teaching saxophone from one of two opposite camps, the pucker or the smiley face. The corners thing and equal pressure around the mouthpiece has to be taken in context of a book written last century. Teal's saxophone students at that time played for a university band director who thought that the saxophone belonged in a bar, and should be seen but not heard except for solos.
 
Some unverified historical context:

The material in Teal's book was written in circa 1960. It was written in the Summy-Birchard series that provided handbook information for students and teachers. Remember that this was a time when most universities had the clarinet teacher teaching saxophone from one of two opposite camps, the pucker or the smiley face. The corners thing and equal pressure around the mouthpiece has to be taken in context of a book written last century. Teal's saxophone students at that time played for a university band director who thought that the saxophone belonged in a bar, and should be seen but not heard except for solos.
And A Tune A Day - 1945 and Otto Langey - 1927. Can't imagine there being too much difference from what our Larry said in 1960?
 
Allard is lower lip over teeth?
Yes.
As described by Liebman:
Imagine saying "v" as in "victory" and notice your top teeth touching the lower lip. This is the starting point where your lower teeth are.

So it is not "in" like some clarinet teachers taught it in early days.

Cheers, Guenne
 
While searching for teachers Larry Teal studied with who influenced his playing and teaching I came across this work comparing the influence of Marcel Mule and Larry Teal. It would appear that Teal was an accomplished "doubler" on woodwinds as well as a being a well known "classical" saxophonist of the day.
 
An Interesting read. It implies Teal plays with an embouchure borrowed from classical clarinet.

Teal began seriously studying clarinet for the first time with the renowned performer and teacher, Albert Luconi. Teal claims that his musical knowledge and artistry was greatly enriched through his studies with Luconi, and that these skills eventually transferred to his saxophone playing.

Albert Luconi - Alberto Luconi - Wikipedia

And Mule quoted:

combination of good air support and an embouchure that does not crush or pinch the reed, and should be accomplished with relative ease

The vibrato thing is interesting too, with Mule basically taking it on from hearing jazz musicians. Prior to that it is said that the classical saxophone was played like a clarinet, without vibrato. That isn't reminiscent of latter years French school clarinet playing, though perhaps it was back in the day.
 
I would agree that the saxophone and clarinet embouchures have much in common, but there are some important differences as well. I was taught that on the saxophone embouchure the chin is not "bunched" but rounded. On the clarinet the chin is flat. The lower lip on the saxophone goes a bit farther over the bottom teeth and is more relaxed forming a "cushion" for the reed. The lower lip on the clarinet goes over the bottom teeth just enough to cover them, and is stretched tight and firm to contact the least amount of reed as possible.

One of the top woodwind players and teachers in my area is Dr. Ray Smith at Brigham Young University who studied saxophone with Eugene Rousseau at Indiana University. As a student he played recitals on clarinet, saxophone, flute, oboe, and bassoon---one of only 3 students to ever accomplish that in the school's history.

I was able to take some lessons from Ray Smith on how to teach woodwinds. He described forming the both the clarinet and saxophone embouchures by the "EE" muscles stretching out, and the "OO" muscles pushing in at the same time creating a tug-o-war between the two sets of muscles. The difference is that on the clarinet, the contest ends in a "tie" forming a flat chin and "stretched" lower lip while on the saxophone the "OO" muscles win, but the "EE" muscles don't quit pulling entirely forming a more rounded chin and softer lower lip. I used these concepts with beginning students over many years with good success.

Of course these descriptions apply primarily to classical playing on both instruments. Playing jazz there are some significant differences in embouchure that help to produce the sounds "characteristic" of that style of music.
 
We don’t know how bad some of these were...
This might help you to decide. ;) Ray Smith recorded the clarinet, oboe, alto sax, and bassoon parts to
Les 3 Mousquetaires by Pierre-Max Dubois on his album of classical music entitled Tableaux de Provence. You can listen to excerpts at the link below.

Tableaux de Provence CD by Ray Smith

For a sample of his jazz playing go to this link.

Q'D Up
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom