(bottom of page)
GiGi
Hootin' & Tootin'
And an absolutely lovely and brilliant teacher you were, too, Pete - you even stopped me from getting ripped off with a dodgy 2nd hand sax!
Teachers or mentors vs learning on the job or apprenticing
- Thread starter wakyct
- Start date
I used to teach a few students. I don’t have a degree, so not qualified to reach at a school. Until they start giving equivalents for street education…
The best lessons I’ve had I got on the band stand. Some just by hearing how others played, some by having people gently (or not!) giving advice. When I have been in positions of leadership, like playing lead in a big band, I just try to be a point of reference for the section and play consistently.
I was in a band once where the pianist need some nudging on comping behind the soloist, I remember being a bit snippy with him. He told me years later, after he became a successful record producer, that he had really taken my comments to heart and that it had helped him a lot as a player AND a producer. So we are all mentoring our colleagues all the time, which is one of the many reasons that I think music is the best thing in the world.
The best lessons I’ve had I got on the band stand. Some just by hearing how others played, some by having people gently (or not!) giving advice. When I have been in positions of leadership, like playing lead in a big band, I just try to be a point of reference for the section and play consistently.
I was in a band once where the pianist need some nudging on comping behind the soloist, I remember being a bit snippy with him. He told me years later, after he became a successful record producer, that he had really taken my comments to heart and that it had helped him a lot as a player AND a producer. So we are all mentoring our colleagues all the time, which is one of the many reasons that I think music is the best thing in the world.
No, its' not to behave .....
Pete Effamy
Well-Known Member
- 4,421
Yes this is a problem. The way our system works you could have a player in the London Symphony Orchestra who would be considered unqualified to teach in the UK.
"Leonard taught me a lot about the inside of the business ... he'd tell me ...'if you want to make a dime, live good but try to save two-and-a-half cents of that dime'" said James Milton Campbell Jr a k a Little Milton. And it's Leonard Chess (Chess Records, Chicago) who told Little Milton the importance to take care of his music career. It' not only to play in all 12 keys, grades ......?😉
Most players are competent when it comes to play but there are other things many musicians most take care of. Most musicians are trying to deal with the other things themselves. Some are asking for help or buying the service. The other things can be ....
.... marketing
.... finance
.... booking of concerts/assignments
.... production of promotional material
The covid pandemic showed that many (self-employed) musicians haven't earned enough money to face a setback. Many self employed musicians laid down their music careers and took an ordinary day job. The result; some music productions just vanished. Nowadays adult Rock education (not university, academic) are covering the other things as a part of the education. Just keep in mind I'm talking about how it's is here around. CS is an International forum.
Well when I was teaching (academically) I certainly taught at least two of those, marketing and production of promotional material (the same topic?)
But also we included the whole production aspect of a performance as far as is possible within the academic system. A performance exam could include showing rehearsal scheduling, stage production, image design, presentation (communication with audience) etc. In my case this was mostly in pop, rock, R&B and jazz genres but was part of what I mentioned above about students transitioning from a recital mentality to a performance mentality.
Actually when I was given a post at University I had no degree or teaching qualifications (just a diploma from College which as they mentioned did not count) - it was actually based on my interview and industry experience and research potential. Whether they broke any University or national laws or regulations I don't know, nor do I know if they would be able to do that now (this was back in 1999)
Pete Effamy
Well-Known Member
- 4,421
Could be that Uni level can do what they want. Not in schools/music services etc.
You (and me) would be considered unqualified and paid on “instructor rate”.
Pete Effamy
Well-Known Member
- 4,421
Please find another word. Ashkenazy (see my previous post) gave recitals…
I can't think of another word in this context. And I agree Ashkenazy gave recitals that were performances. The word recital doesn't really fit into the kind of pop, rock or jazz performance we were encouraging on the course I'm talking about.
Pete Effamy
Well-Known Member
- 4,421
🤷🏻♂️ you’re not wrong!
Recital is a word that musically is used for a programme of music by a soloist or small group of musicians.
No, there is no equivalent outside of classical music (though they have stolen the word “gig”).
Well you'll actually find some definitions of recital including the word performance and Mr.pedntic's cousin had every right to pick me up on it.
But the differences were actually noted by an exam board at the university, ie undergraduate students came in having proudly done grade 8 which may have involved reading a difficult etude or a piece off of a music stand while wearing their school uniform, entering and exiting the sage looking po-faced or nervous.
By year 3 we had them doing stage moves (where appropriate) joking and engaging with the audience, drawing up a lighting plan, looking cool and having a good time on a stage in a pub for their final exam. A real performance, not merely a recital. So while recital may technically be classed as a performance, for me performance implies a lot more than reciting.
If you've ever been to poetry recitals you'll know the difference between reciting to words and bringing the words to life.
I also remember differences with words e.g. the classical students got marked for deportment, the pop, rock or jazz for image. may be the same thing in some cases.
The Difference between a Recital and Concert ⋆ Center Stage Music Center
It is now the time of year where the weather has finally begun to warm up and the first signs of summer of are upon us. While some families might be spending their weekends at the beach or the lake, many will be sitting inside nicely air conditioned performing arts halls listening to the...
centerstagemusiccenter.com
Last edited:
You are too kind. I have a very dim recall of those days. What was the dodgy 2nd hand sax?And an absolutely lovely and brilliant teacher you were, too, Pete - you even stopped me from getting ripped off with a dodgy 2nd hand sax!
Pete Effamy
Well-Known Member
- 4,421
So classical musicians don’t give performances? Blimey.Well you'll actually find some definitions of recital including the word performance and Mr.pedntic's cousin had every right to pick me up on it.
But the differences were actually noted by an exam board at the university, ie undergraduate students came in having proudly done grade 8 which may have involved reading a difficult etude or a piece off of a music stand while wearing their school uniform, entering and exiting the sage looking po-faced or nervous.
By year 3 we had them doing stage moves (where appropriate) joking and engaging with the audience, drawing up a lighting plan, looking cool and having a good time on a stage in a pub for their final exam. A real performance, not merely a recital. So while recital may technically be classed as a performance, for me performance implies a lot more than reciting.
If you've ever been to poetry recitals you'll know the difference between reciting to words and bringing the words to life.
I also remember differences with words e.g. the classical students got marked for deportment, the pop, rock or jazz for image. may be the same thing in some cases.
The Difference between a Recital and Concert ⋆ Center Stage Music Center
It is now the time of year where the weather has finally begun to warm up and the first signs of summer of are upon us. While some families might be spending their weekends at the beach or the lake, many will be sitting inside nicely air conditioned performing arts halls listening to the...
Indeed they do. Ever seen James Galway?
I think giving great performances goes with being a great musician, whatever genre.
Pete Effamy
Well-Known Member
- 4,421
Of course. He will have given more recitals than we’ve played a bunch of notes over C7.
Ashkenazy playing a recital would have been more animated than Bill Evans giving “a performance “.
A piano recital might include Cage 4’33” - which might include a “performance “ as you put it or “nothingness “.
This guy too.
Yes, no argument there.
That's good if the veteran/master is a fine player.
The blues and rock guitarist who taught me was well educated. His was a true blues and rock guitarist but he was also teaching and playing jazz and classic guitar. Maybe it's still like the easy genre (blues, rock..) are being taught at pubs with open mics ...... Two good and talent "fiddlers" who used to come and play the easy blues and rock really liked to play the easy music. They liked to "bang on" with predictable blues and rock & roll songs in a 12 bar pattern. The music helped them to do a good job ... the music was just something to do for fun .... . The funny thing is that the easy blues and rock & roll stuff made us all a little bit clever. I learned to play sax while I was watching hockey and football. The organ players at NHL games inspired me to improvise ...
GiGi
Hootin' & Tootin'
It was a Selmer one, the first Tenor I got and arrived with for my first lesson with you. You tested it and said it was appalling, the pads weren't tight, something was bent, can't remember what, you said it was unplayable, that I got ripped off, and you went with me to see the guy I bought it from, to get my money back. He wasn't best pleased, said you didn't know what you're talking about, all that going on, while I was inwardly freaking out! You also got me another one, or advised me which one to get, can't remember myself how that went, but you tested the 2nd one before you gave me to ok to go ahead. It was such a relief, and I could actually get a noise out of that one. #ForeverGrateful 🙂 x
I coincidentally found another perspective on the original question of whether students are learning in an apprentice-ship way these days, Hal Galper Masterclass: " Masters Need To Play With Students"
Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀
-
-
Studies Mentors: Do/did you have one; Are You a Mentor?
- Started by Acc6441
- Replies: 18
-
Courses/Workshops New course offering from The Sax Loft
- Started by Acc6441
- Replies: 0
-
-
Featured Classifieds
Trending content
Latest: Members' Recordings
-
SOTM SOTM December 2024 - Born to Be Blue- Started by rhysonsax
- Replies: 6
-
