Mouthpieces Table length effect on a mouthpiece?

[swhnld]

I am always curious why something has a certain impact. Today I have been reading up on various mouthpieces, and seen a lot about tip openings and chambers, but nobody seems to comment about table length. Why is that as for example Selmer does advertise with it, I expect it has an effect as well for the player?

 

[jbtsax]

In my understanding the only dimension of importance is the length from the start of the "window" to the tip. The length of the table behind the window that the reed sits on should not make a difference. There are mouthpiece "experts" who take part in this forum who can give a more definitive and authoratative answer.

 

[GCinCT]

There are mouthpiece "experts" who take part in this forum who can give a more definitive and authoratative answer.

I would be very interested in what the experts have to say on this topic. It would seem to me that as long as the table is flat and the reed seals to it, the length would be irrelevant. That part of the reed doesn't vibrate, but as I am not one of the experts, I await their views.

 

[swhnld]

Just to add examples to the threat where Selmer is using it, Accessories - B-flat Tenor Saxophone Mouthpiece
Concept mouthpiece for tenor, opening 2,10 mm, Table length 27 mm, round chamber
SD20 mouthpiece for tenor, opening 1,94 mm, Table length 33 mm, round chamber

 

[Pete Thomas]

They cannot mean table length 27mm is way too short. Is more like the facing length.

Translation issue.

 

[Ivan]

I'm sure @thomsax has examples of mouthpieces with a cut-away table which would affect length

 

[swhnld]

In French they call it: longueur de table
Looking at a French site it gives the picture of a mouthpiece: Bec (saxophone) — Wikipédia

 

[Pete Thomas]

In French they call it: longueur de table
Looking at a French site it gives the picture of a mouthpiece: Bec (saxophone) — Wikipédia

There you go then I was right. It should be translated to length of facing.

And yes(if your question was about the facing length) it has probably as much impact as the tip opening. Both the actual length and shape of the actual curve are as crucial.

But what in English would be the length of the table (the flat part) then it's not relevant.

One might argue that with a concave table the length could have a very slight effect on how it "curves" the reed, but I wouldn't.

 

[Hipparion]

It looks like the French designation about this is misleading.
Not our worst fault, but still...

However translating the English expression to French is not completely obvious either. Maybe a French (or french-litterate) MP worker would know better.

 

[DavidUK]

What effect does a longer, or shorter, facing have? And is the facing only the part where the rails angle away from the line of the table. Not the rails' whole length of the window, some of which could be in line with the table?

 

[Pete Thomas]

What effect does a longer, or shorter, facing have? And is the facing only the part where the rails angle away from the line of the table. Not the rails' whole length of the window, some of which could be in line with the table?

Think about holding a flexible ruler over the edge of a table.

Press down on the overhanging bit. The more that overhangs the easier it is to press down (less resistance)

Where the facing curve starts is the equivalent of the table edge, so longer facing = less resistance

Hence when thinking about reed resistance the curve can have as much to do with it as the tip opening.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I read somewhere that facing length changes on selmers around e f opening. The bigger tip openings having a longer length. It makes sense in that the wider pieces would be impossible to blow, whereas they can be quite easy.

 

[DavidUK]

Think about holding a flexible ruler over the edge of a table.

Press down on the overhanging bit. The more that overhangs the easier it is to press down (less resistance)

Where the facing curve starts is the equivalent of the table edge, so longer facing = less resistance

Hence when thinking about reed resistance the curve can have as much to do with it as the tip opening.

OK, with that, but then what difference does the length of the window make? In most cases the window is longer than the facing but I can't see how it can allow more air through than if it were the same length as the facing as the reed would be flat against the rails each side of the window at any point behind the the start of the facing curve.
If I'm correct (unlikely), why not always have the window the same length as the facing?

 

[thomsax]

Rovner Deep-V D40 mouthpieces. The gold one is made just before Rovner stopped making mouthpieces

 

[Phil]

A short window makes for a very restricted tone...especially in the low end. The reed continues to vibrate beyond the facing length to a minor extent. Additionally, a short vs long window makes a difference in chamber volume which means everything in terms of darkness and brightness.

You cant just isolate one part of a mpc from all the other variables and come up with a clear understanding. Its all about relationships

 

[DavidUK]

Thanks Phil. So would a longer facing and long window give a free blowing, dark sounding, MP compared to a short faced short window, i.e. window length = Dark (long) or bright (short).

I'd previously thought it was just the tip opening and chamber size/shape which affected the overall sound. Naive perhaps, but I've never really been into MPs, just trying those which come with horns I've bought. Then my PPT generally wins over all comers.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I agree with Phil. If the window is short it is not good, I believe it needs to be long enough to cover the vibrating part of the reed. If it is longer I don;'t think that matters, but maybe it does with those really elongated windows that go all the way up the table (as with those Rovners and certain Jody Jazz. However how would you tell whether it's the mega elongated window making the difference or is it just because that also has the effect of increasing chamber volume. I suspect the latter.

I'll have a chat with the good Doc Pillinger and see what his thoughts are.

 

[vries1]

One can also have a look at Wyman’s thesis on mouthpiece design. Pp. 92-94.

 

[Phil]

A thesis on pieces?

How poetic : )

 

[vries1]

Sure, let me find a link for you...