Beginner (playing) strange problem any ideas????

[flukeyluke]

I have just got my trevor james signature back today from its service and have noticed a very strange problem,,when i play it with my bari esprit 2 mouthpiece the low c warbles,all other notes are fine including the 2 either side of it? (Bb andD)

At first i thought "hang on,its still leaking" but the tech played it when i was there and all was fine,i then changed mouthpiece to my meyer 5m and the warble had gone???????? plays great,,,changed back to the bari and warble again.

Does anyone know why this may be happening? seems very strange to me indeed.

Thanks

( a confused luke)

 

[rhysonsax]

Did it play without the warble when using the Bari mouthpiece before it went for a service ?

If yes, then have a look at the G# key and see if it is raising slightly or get someone to press it down hard and see whether the warble goes away.

If no, then some mouthpieces can just provoke a slight instability on some horns and this is a real pain if that happens when the mouthpiece is in the optimal tuning position. Try moving your mouthpiece say about 5mm up or down the neck cork - it will play out of tune, but does the warble vanish ?

Good luck

Rhys

 

[flukeyluke]

Thanks for the reply,i never tried the bari on it before it went for a service so not sure but i do know it didnt warble when the tech played it with his mouthpiece and dosnt with my meyer....i did try moving the bari but still had a warble.

Luke

 

[flukeyluke]

Someone has advised me that its the height of the Bb and the one next to its tone hole height,they have suggested that i unscrew the felts (the ones that adjust the height) a bit at a time opening them up until the warble goes,,,,does this sound like it could be the problem? and more importantly the fix?

Thanks

 

[rhysonsax]

Can't do any harm as it is entirely reversible.

I could sort of understand how the B hole venting height might have some effect as it's the first open hole when playing low C, but not the Bb.

I had a warble problem on an alto, but only with a high baffle mouthpiece. Steve Howard checked it, played it with his mouthpiece and couldn't get it to warble. So it was a bad combination of mouthpiece and horn. Eventually I cured it with some Blu Tack inserted in the bore at the top side of the bottom bow. It must have just moved the location of nodes and antinodes in the standing wave inside the instrument bore and made it more stable.

In your case I would advise just playing a mouthpiece that doesn't warble, unless the Bari gives you a special sound you can't get any other way.

Rhys

 

[flukeyluke]

Thanks for the reply,no i prefer the meyer sound tbh,think i will just stick with the meyer and maybe leave it as the meyer seems to work fine 🙂

Thanks

Luke

 

[Colin the Bear]

If one mouthpiece produces a warble and another doesn't I'd be playing with the one that doesn't. The bari probably has a closer tip opening and needs a different reed, embouchure and more air support. Stick with what works. The Bari is a good place to start. You've moved on. If I remember right the bari is 0.067" and the meyer 5 is 0.071"

 

[jbtsax]

A warble is created by "inharmonicity" in the first several overtones. That means they are out of tune with one another and the stronger harmonics have a tug-o-war over which one controls the "regime of oscillation" which simply means the sound that you hear which is a combination of the fundamental and it's harmonics. The warble is the sound created when the control goes back and forth between two harmonics that are out of tune with one another.

This raises the question of what causes the "inharmonicity" of the overtones in the first place. I know that one of the causes is the mismatch between the "effective volume" inside the mouthpiece and the volume of the imaginary "missing cone" that would exist of the taper of the neck (crook) were extended till it made a point.

Here is what I would suggest. Take a piece of duct tape and cover the portion of each mouthpiece where the reed sits. Fill the mouthpieces with water to the top of their shanks and then pour it out into a graduated cylinder. Record the interior "physical volume" in milliliters (ml) which is the same as cubic centimeters (cc) and compare the "physical volumes" of the two mouthpieces.

If you want a very exact comparison measure how far each mouthpiece goes onto the cork in mm to play in tune. Then measure the interior diameter of each mouthpiece's shank also in mm. Use the formula pi r squared x height to determine the mouthpiece volume displaced by the neck---where the "height" is the distance the mouthpiece goes on to the neck. Then subtract this amount from the measured volume of the total mouthpiece.

My hunch is that the Bari Esprit 2 mouthpiece's volume is the larger of the two. If my hunch is correct, push that mouthpiece onto the cork until the warble goes away. If the Bari Esprit 2 mouthpiece's volume is the smaller of the two, pull the mouthpiece out until the warble goes away.

Here are some sound clips of a warble I recorded at regular speed and slowed down. The warble was produced using a tenor sax mouthpiece on a C-melody.

Warble Regular Speed
Warble Slow

 

[flukeyluke]

A warble is created by "inharmonicity" in the first several overtones. That means they are out of tune with one another and the stronger harmonics have a tug-o-war over which one controls the "regime of oscillation" which simply means the sound that you hear which is a combination of the fundamental and it's harmonics. The warble is the sound created when the control goes back and forth between two harmonics that are out of tune with one another.

This raises the question of what causes the "inharmonicity" of the overtones in the first place. I know that one of the causes is the mismatch between the "effective volume" inside the mouthpiece and the volume of the imaginary "missing cone" that would exist of the taper of the neck (crook) were extended till it made a point.

Here is what I would suggest. Take a piece of duct tape and cover the portion of each mouthpiece where the reed sits. Fill the mouthpieces with water to the top of their shanks and then pour it out into a graduated cylinder. Record the interior "physical volume" in milliliters (ml) which is the same as cubic centimeters (cc) and compare the "physical volumes" of the two mouthpieces.

If you want a very exact comparison measure how far each mouthpiece goes onto the cork in mm to play in tune. Then measure the interior diameter of each mouthpiece's shank also in mm. Use the formula pi r squared x height to determine the mouthpiece volume displaced by the neck---where the "height" is the distance the mouthpiece goes on to the neck. Then subtract this amount from the measured volume of the total mouthpiece.

My hunch is that the Bari Esprit 2 mouthpiece's volume is the larger of the two. If my hunch is correct, push that mouthpiece onto the cork until the warble goes away. If the Bari Esprit 2 mouthpiece's volume is the smaller of the two, pull the mouthpiece out until the warble goes away.

Here are some sound clips of a warble I recorded at regular speed and slowed down. The warble was produced using a tenor sax mouthpiece on a C-melody.
Warble Regular Speed
Warble Slow

That first soundclip is the EXACT type of warble im getting,the bari is longer than the meyer and does seem like a bigger mouthpiece overall,maybe i will try to push it on more as i only tried pulling it out,,,i will mostly be playing with my meyer but would be nice to be able to play with any mouthpiece on my horn if i wish to 🙂

 

[flukeyluke]

thanks colin,i do love my meyer and will be playing with it the most 🙂 just was a bit strange to me being a noob,i thought you could stick any mouthpiece on and it would work fine straight away lol,i still get the occasional squeak when using the meyer so not 100% used to it yet but im getting there 🙂

dont squeak at all with the bari but the warble was driving me MAD haha

Luke

 

[Colin the Bear]

JBT. Your explanations amaze me. You've explained this so many times on here I think I'm beginning to get it.

I can't wait to pour liquid from one mouthpiece to another to see which has the greater volume. I just need to get the guys at the club to buy the liquid.

 

[jbtsax]

JBT. Your explanations amaze me. You've explained this so many times on here I think I'm beginning to get it.

I can't wait to pour liquid from one mouthpiece to another to see which has the greater volume. I just need to get the guys at the club to buy the liquid.

Just remember to measure it before you drink it---not a while after.

 

[kernewegor]

Dropping a wine cork into the bell can be a quick fix for warbles.

Pushing the mouthpiece further on will sharpen the tuning but that isn't a bad thing. Compensate by using a more relaxed embouchure to bring yourself back in tune and you should find you can develop a bigger tone and more volume. And your reeds last longer...

 

[kevgermany]

Fully agree with what's been said.

Couple of points
- if you don't subtract the volume that's on the neck, comparisons are misleading.
- the amount the mouthpiece is pushed on the neck is subjective and affected by embouchure
- finding the correct mouthpiece on neck position means warming up, then experimenting with a tuner to see that the octaves are in tune across the range of the sax without changing your embouchure when you press the octave key. If this isn't the case, sort that out first. If you can't do it with the Esprit, but can with the Meyer, then you're in the mouthpiece/sax mismatch area mentioned earlier.

As the Meyer works you may not want to faff around like this, so just get on and play. But it's really necessary to check your tuning/octaves. Once you find the right position mark the neck cork. .

 

[ProfJames]

Excellent thread........it's as clear as mud...................joking guys!

 

[flukeyluke]

Right i noticed today that even the meyer had a warble when trying to play softly/quiet so i had to do something about it lol i gently unscrewed both the bottom Bb and B felts a bit at a time to try and get rid of it,,,it got worse lol so i left the Bb felt alone and unscrewed the bottom B felt on its own a bit at a time,the warble has now gone 🙂

only thing is the keys are no longer the same height (bottom Bb and B) but it was the only way i could get rid of it,if i unscrew both so there the same height the warble gets worse!!!

at least its gone and i can enjoy my playing/learning again,thanks to all that have replied 🙂

Luke

 

[jbtsax]

Backing out the low B adjustable bumper simply transfers the location that determines the key travel from the keyguard to the Bb touchpiece. At that point the adjustment of the Bb felt bumper determines the height of both keys. Once the key is opened to roughly 1/3 the diameter of the tonehole, opening it more makes absolutely no difference acoustically---either to the venting or to the "end correction" which determines the wavelength hence pitch of the note.

 

[flukeyluke]

I have no idea what you just said lol i just know that what i did has completely got rid of the warble with the meyer and improved the bari although the bari still warbles slightly when played softly.

Im going to leave it now as i only really play with the meyer anyway 🙂

Luke

 

[jbtsax]

Now that everyone is thoroughly confused, my work here is done.

 

[kernewegor]

Just for goodness sake don't mention silver bullets or this thread will turn into an interminable discussion about whether or not silver plating affects the tone of saxophones...