Stand failed, bari fell, won't play - can't get to repair shop before gig

[PirateNurr]

Hi all,

So as the thread title explains, my bari fell back and to the left off of its stand and now it won't play. I just had the G# key fixed and a general tune up last week before an upcoming gig and it was playing better than ever, so I'm a little devastated and trying not to panic. I won't be able to take it back to the shop before I need to play. Since it was in excellent cosmetic shape I tried to follow the scratches to find a culprit and am still stymied. It's an Allora with the low A and high F# keys. Here's what's happening:

• When playing, I'm confined to the upper and upper-middle register. RH mostly makes squeaks although occasionally I can get changes in tone. Attempting low C makes a honk. Trying to go lower from G to D is a similar honk.
• The middle two keycups on the bell move when I press the lower left thumb keystrike but won't close fully, like if I were playing low C. The keystrike works lazily.
• The left thumb octave key will only sometimes change the octave. While I've been trying to figure out what will and won't play it will sometimes stick where it only squeaks hot air and gives no change, and sometimes it will let me play upper left-hand notes.
• I can't find any mechanical pieces that are hitting each other or stuck together
• All keystrikes feel like they did before the fall - I can't isolate anything specific that feels different or wrong.
• The only scratches I can find are on the upper left portion of the neck/body, like it fell back and on its left side. I can't find any other scratches on the body or keys.

Thanks so much for any input!

 

[PigSquealer]

You you probably have a leak in this section somewhere. Something bent and not allowing the key to completely /consistently close on return. Check the spit valve first. look where the brace is at body. Impact dent ? with a piece of tissue feel for tension all the way around each palm key pad. Check all the pads with the tissue if you have to. Cut some slivers from some shoebox tissue.

 

[PirateNurr]

That's exactly where the scratches are, so thanks! I'm getting right on it.

 

[PirateNurr]

I gently pulled the left curve of the neck out a little where it had impact and now I've got several more notes working properly.

What I can isolate is that the left hand lower thumb keystrike won't close the middle two keycups on the bell unless I press really hard. The G#-B cluster on the left hand could have also hit the ground based on trajectory, and if I could adjust those keys to the left then the cups on the bell would actually close. Is it worth pulling on this gently, or how else would I get back into alignment to get those two cups to close and have the keystrike work normally? It looks like if I were to push it slightly it could work but not sure if this is a good idea.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Unless you're extremely lucky, a horn hitting the deck will always have at least two points of impact...and thus damage.
In the case of a horn that falls onto the bell or bottom bow, there's nearly always some additional damage up at the top end (first place to look is around the top F# key cup).

So your bari's fallen backwards. That'll be the top bow all out of whack (hence the problems with the octave mech) - and the secondary impact appears to be the bell...which is probably now out of alignment. Classic indicators are bell key pads that hit the back of the tonehole and leave the front wide open.
That said, it's always worth checking that the damage isn't simply confined to the bell key table - which you can do by pressing down the bell keys...then pressing the G# touchpiece. If it moves further down then it's unlikely that the bell key table is out of alignment. If it doesn't move down it may mean that the G# touchpiece is 'holding off' the bell keys.
It happens, but it's rare - so don't get your hopes up.

 

[PigSquealer]

I gently pulled the left curve of the neck out a little where it had impact and now I've got several more notes working properly.

What I can isolate is that the left hand lower thumb keystrike won't close the middle two keycups on the bell unless I press really hard. The G#-B cluster on the left hand could have also hit the ground based on trajectory, and if I could adjust those keys to the left then the cups on the bell would actually close. Is it worth pulling on this gently, or how else would I get back into alignment to get those two cups to close and have the keystrike work normally? It looks like if I were to push it slightly it could work but not sure if this is a good idea.

Between your experience level and ability to call out parts on the sax. I think it’s best you take it to a tech.

 

[PirateNurr]

I understand this was a long shot and a repair tech is my best option - I was just having trouble hunting down where the damage was to even try to troubleshoot myself. I've never been this far away from a shop and everyone has to start somewhere right?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I understand this was a long shot and a repair tech is my best option - I was just having trouble hunting down where the damage was to even try to troubleshoot myself. I've never been this far away from a shop and everyone has to start somewhere right?

Thanks for your help.

The advice was well-intentioned.
I see a lot of repairs where players have 'had a go' at attempting a fix - and the fastest way to up your repair bill is to try to move things around after an instrument has taken a tumble. I get the logic - "The horn has been bent - therefore bending it back is a good thing" - but it really doesn't work like that...and in many cases it ends up virtually doubling the damage.
The classic example of this is a bent flute. Common problem - and generally an easy fix. But if someone tries to straighten the body (typical by placing it over a knee and yanking on each end of the body), the body gives way at the G# tonehole - so now you have a double bend and a malformed tonehole.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I've been maintaining my own instruments for 50 years, have a mechanical background and had a business fixing stuff.
When my Baritone got knocked off the stand it took me 18 months to get it playing reliably again.
Lots of little movements that when moved, moved again. Pads that needed replacing because the seat had moved, regulation cork that was now too thin or too thick.
Little by little it came back together.

My point is that a skilled tech, with the right tools, equipment and skill, could have had it on the bench for a couple of hours and playing again.

For the uninitiated it's a minefield and more damage can be done with the best of intentions.

I now have instrument insurance.

 

[mizmar]

everyone has to start somewhere right?

Wrong time to do, let alone start, delicate mechanical tasks that require experience: when you're in a panic.

Right time: when you have time and possibly an old beater horn to learn on.


Not very helpful when you're in a panic... But that's the nature off panics.

 

[LostCircuits]

My initial thought is that you probably knocked a post out of alignment, which causes a key to no longer find the tone hole in the proper way. The first thing I recommend (if you are not totally frustrated yet) is to do a visual inspection of all key cups as to whether they are still centered on the respective tone hole. My suspicion is the neck or body octave key, or any other key high up on the horn, those are the most exposed ones and most likely to have a bent post.

If there is a key that is out of alignment. it is most likely not the key but the post. In some cases you may be lucky and push it back even with your thumb. Don't bend any keys! Unless you can positively say it was twisted by the impact.

Also, post some pictures, if you find some damage to get more specific advice on the possible remedy.

 

[greenstripe]

Maybe too late, but another suggestion that comes to mind to get you out of your predicament:

Is there an option to hire a baritone sax from someone that can send it via courier etc?

That way you can work out getting yours fixed when it's more convenient.

 

[Dr G]

The OP has already received most of this advice and more on that other sax website. The short term fix was determined to be playing the gig on tenor.