Split rolled tone hole repair

[Feon]

I got today a SML GM mkI tenor which I got in eBay for a relatively good price.
Described as "perfectly straight body" it turned out to have a split F# tone hole and deformations on the F and F#.
It seems the bell to body brace has been pushed slightly in and someone tried unsuccessfully to push it back and the dent rod probably damaged the F# rim.
Apart from that and some acid bleeding on a couple of places, the horn seems good. Pads are still original, the upper stack and palm keys seal 98%, so the impact on the brace seems to have damaged only those two tone holes.

How would you go about fixing this?
I will bring it to a tech - the only one in my area who does dent work. He saw the pictures and said he'll remove the dents and soft solder the crack.
I really want to see if there is any chance not burning badly the lacquer and will be thankful to get more opinions beforehand.

I also have the option for a partial refund or return and if this repair will ruin the finish, I think I'd rather return it.

 

[MarkSax]

I’d return it. Seller should have stated the repair work. Who knows what else is wonky on that sax? Is the shipping back as much as a repair?

 

[turf3]

If the dent removal did that, the bore of the instrument may well have been buggered up by the dent removal as well. Fixing it will definitely take off lacquer.

 

[JayeNM]

It's fixable, and fixable to the degree where it would never cause problems in the future. The circularity of the bore can be corrected, too.

However, it will also always be a visible repair, and most certainly the lacquer will be effected. So it will look like a repaired are, likely with the lacq gone.

My tendency here is to agree with the above comments....if your desire/expectation was to have a really pristine-condition horn as far as finish....no repair will achieve that (I suppose a tech can color-match and spot-lacquer the bare area, but over time even THAT begins to show as a spot lacquer)...and I suppose one can argue that it is in a relatively un-visible area of the horn, too...but again, if it was described and sold with a certain representation...it will never 'get back' to that representation.
I know a few techs who could pull this off and literally make it look like the crack was never there...at least initially, and for a while (there is no saying how a spot lacqued area can age and start to contrast the original lacq....suffice it to say, 75% of the time...that's exactly what will happen withing a few months or perhaps year or two)
....but the other 90% of techs who could do this repair, would do no better than repairing it to return its structural/functional integrity and that would be the end of the successful repair of that area...aesthetics would be off the table entirely.

There is NO argument from a seller's perspective that a split tonehole and out-of level tonehole rims is anything but "undescribed/unrevealed damage" - even IF the seller truly didn't know of it).

Plus, if you ever decided to sell her, you would have to disclose the repair work and that would knock market value and desirability off the horn.

So, I mean, I dunno what you paid. If it was a steal, keep it and repair it and enjoy it. OR if it wasn't a steal, if it was withing 100 quid or so of what other auctions ended at....then a significant partial refund could still make it a viable transaction - I am talking like a 30% refund, minimum...but not viable if the aesthetics afterward would bother you.

 

[jbtsax]

Two thoughts: 1) the crack could be filled with epoxy after the dent is repaired so it would not leak 2) using Tix solder which melts at a lower temperature lessens the chance of burning the lacquer. Neither method would hide the crack completely.

 

[LostCircuits]

Once the tone hole is squared/circled again, it may level out the rim to the point where the edges of the crack meet and where it can be relatively easily soft soldered. Hard to tell from the pictures, though. If you think you got a really great deal, then it may be worth going down that path. If you expected a "pristine" instrument, then return it.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I'd send it back.
If that split tonehole is the example of someone's workmanship, there's no telling what other stunts they've pulled - and if you keep the horn, it'll be your problem...and expense.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Apart from that and some acid bleeding on a couple of places, the horn seems good.

I would get a tech opinion on that (see above)

Pads are still original, the upper stack and palm keys seal 98%,

That's a very precise diagnosis. I think something is sealing 100% and my tech (who shall remain nameless) says otherwise...

That's a seller I would not trust to have just got that on thing misrepresented.

 

[Feon]

I’d return it. Seller should have stated the repair work. Who knows what else is wonky on that sax? Is the shipping back as much as a repair?

I have to check, but I think eBay/paypal or seller should cover return shipping.
Seller offered either return or 200 Euro partial refund.

It's fixable, and fixable to the degree where it would never cause problems in the future. The circularity of the bore can be corrected, too...

It turned out a bit less than 2200 Euro (shipping included). It is a 17xxx Sml Gold Medal mkI, dark gold lacquer, some acid bleeding spots here and there, but lacquer is 95-96%.
Keyword is snappy and without any play. No soldering jobs visible. Apart form this damage, there is a bit sloppy repair near the neck receiver (see photo). But my tech said this is easily fixable.

The question is whether soft soldering the crack from inside the tone hole is an adequate fix or not?
And is it worth it?

...To be honest, I like SMLs very much. I play a nice GM mkII and for some time I'm keeping an eye for a nice and not over the top Mk I. I'd rather overhaul it myself than paying more for a recently repaded, or just quickly fixed horn.

So this is not a pristine one, for sure, but the split tone hole is a let down...

 

[Pete Thomas]

In theory, if you love having an SML (and there is something specail about them) this one issue is worth sorting and get bit of a refund.

BUT I would be really concenerd about why that happened, why it wasn't fixed properly, and what else is wrong that you don't know about until seen by a quailfied tech, and is waiting to bite you on the bum.

 

[Feon]

In theory, if you love having an SML (and there is something specail about them) this one issue is worth sorting and get bit of a refund.

BUT I would be really concenerd about why that happened, why it wasn't fixed properly, and what else is wrong that you don't know about until seen by a quailfied tech, and is waiting to bite you on the bum.

By the look of it, I think it was gathering dust after it bot the slight push-in by the brace (strangely no impact marks on the bell!). My theory is that someone unqualified tried pushing the brace out with a dent rod, but since the brace base on the SMLs is very wide, it needed more force... the rest is a story of a slight slip under the F# and a a nasty crack.

But why nobody tried sorting this out, I have no idea.
My dilemma is actually precisely because I love SML – do I want to have a spoiled one? And, wouldn't I like to bring it back to life?

The problem is that here (Bulgaria) I have exactly 1 tech, who does dent word well. He said he can fix it, but I have doubts we share the same aesthetic expectations

I'll see if eBay or the seller would cover the return expenses to Sweden. On the bright side, this is a good chance to undo some GAS.

 

[Dr G]

Another vote to return it. There may be (usually is) more damage than meets the eye in cases like this.

 

[Stephen Howard]

View attachment 18176
That looks an awful lot like a rebound dent. It happens when a careless repairer is using a dent bar with a hammer to remove a dent. The dent bar (with a ball on the end) is placed beneath the dent and the bar is struck smartly with a hammer. The resultant 'whiplash' in the bar propels the ball upwards into the dent...thus knocking it out.
However, the law of equal and opposite force applies - and the dent ball will travel in the opposite direction too. If there's not enough clearance in the body tube, the ball will hit the side of the tube opposite the dent and punch a 'reverse dent' into it.
The image here looks like a classic case of it - and it looks like the repairer had two goes at it.

I wouldn't buy it. I'd send it back for a refund and wait until a more 'honest' example turns up...even if it's not as shiny.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'll see if eBay or the seller would cover the return expenses to Sweden.

Not as described. If you file a dispute based on that, the onus of shipping should be on the seller.

 

[PigSquealer]

Obviously the description of a perfectly straight body is not true. What was the stated play condition? The offer of €200 seems a little short of reasonable compensation. Especially when part will go to the repairs. Then there’s the matter of the play condition.
Would a €500 refund make a difference? If so make a counter offer you feel makes it all worthwhile. Otherwise return it.

 

[Phil]

Bummer...these types of thinks are always stressful and disappointing. Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[peterpick]

i think you have to return it. a soldered rolled tonehole is a delicate matter. i personally love SML and a GM MK 1 tenor is nearly the best in the world. i will say though that that bell-to-body brace is a liability, it must have been designed to punch a hole between the two toneholes there on the down tube - have have had 2 or 3 altos damaged there in transit, almost anything would be a better design, including what they used to do on SMLs before 1945. very interesting to hear from the respected Mr Howard that this looks to him like repair damage. i

 

[Feon]

Here is the update:

Seller offers me 500 Euro refund now, as he apparently doesn't want to deal with return costs and reselling/fixing the horn. Probably this way he doesn't lose money as he may have got it for even less than that.
Otherwise, he offers also to cover the return shipping costs if I prefer to send it back for a full refund.

Strangely, I can feel comfortable with both ways. Part of me prefers of course a faultless horn, part of me thinks such chance would be rare. Most of the SMLs gm mk I currently on sale are in the 2500-3000 range and are beaten up.

So, the factor here I think is by how much would the value decrease if the crack is fixed?
And how is best dealt with this kind of damage? Does it need brazing or soft solder will do?

The tech I can bring it to said he would remove the dents and get the tone holes straight and then soft solder the crack. He thinks the crack will close when pushed gently.

The crack seems also clean, without any corrosion to the point I would say the damage happened fairly recently.

So, what would you do in my place – keep and fix the horn (which will cost me 1700 Euro for the horn, about 50-60 damage repair and 100 Euro materials for the re-pad I will do myself, so about 1860 Euro total) or just return it?

The tech didn't find any other major issues with the body. I'm attaching two more pictures.

 

[peterpick]

it's very shiny. but i can sell you one with no splits or other damage. i think this seller knew about that damage and did not tell you and should be avoided and the sax returned with bad feedback applied if possible. he is hoping you will swallow his damage for him. it's not fair.

 

[Feon]

he is hoping you will swallow his damage for him. it's not fair.

That is very well put actually!
I'm sending it back then

But the drama aside, it is interesting to hear opinions of the experienced techs here what would be the good way to deal with such damage?