Saxophones Soprano Saxophone Excelsior Sonorous Class A Hawkes & Son

[RY Sax]

Hello,
I am firstly a clarinetist (don’t hold that against me), but have recently come back to playing sax on a Yamaha Alto.
I have also inherited a old Soprano Sax. It is all there but currently not in a playable condition until I get it overhauled.
The thing is, I’m not sure whether it would be worth the outlay.
It is a Excelsior Sonorous Class A by
Hawked & Son and has
Denmar Street, Piccadilly Circus, London stamped on the bell.

Can anyone tell me about this instrument? Is it old? Were they good? Should I mend it?

Thanks in advance for you advice.

 

[nigeld]

The maker is Hawkes and Son - who later merged with Boosey to become Boosey and Hawkes.
So it was presumably made before the merger, which took place in 1930.
I think the Excelsior is English made, but it might be a stencil. I have a Hawkes Lafleur soprano from the 20's which is a French stencil.

An important thing to watch out for is whether it is low pitch (i.e. A=440 - modern pitch) or high pitch (about 457). A lot of those old saxes are high pitch, in which case you will not be able to play it with a backing track or with anyone else.

 

[nigeld]

Some pictures of the Hawkes soprano would be interesting.
How many octave key touches does it have - 1 or 2?
You should look for "L" or "H" or a flat or sharp sign on it denoting whether it is low or high pitch. This may not be in an obvious place.

 

[RY Sax]

Many thanks. That is very helpful.
If it were overhauled and in working order, would it be worth anything?

I’m trying to work out whether it is financially worthwhile mending.

 

[RY Sax]

Some pictures of the Hawkes soprano would be interesting.
How many octave key touches does it have - 1 or 2?
You should look for "L" or "H" or a flat or sharp sign on it denoting whether it is low or high pitch. This may not be in an obvious place.

I’ll have a closer look for the b symbol. And also post some photos, when I work out how.

 

[saxyjt]

I have an Hawkes & sons XX Century that sounds sweet but the ergos are not great.

It also requires a proper clean and repad that may happen soon if I ever get the pads I ordered... But that's an entirely other story!

As for the flat or sharp, see here:

 

[nigeld]

If it were overhauled and in working order, would it be worth anything?

I’m trying to work out whether it is financially worthwhile mending.

Unless you are sure that it is low pitch then I am sorry to say that it is only a curiosity - not worth repairing from a financial point of view.

Even if it is low pitch, I doubt if it is worth a lot. It might possibly be a hidden gem, but even so I doubt if you would get much money for it. It is not as well known a model as the Hawkes XX Century that @saxyjt has. In general, restoring a very old saxophone is a labour of love for the owner and the repairer. I am getting my old Hawkes Lafleur repadded, but I do not expect this to be worthwhile financially - I'm doing it because it is a nice old sax and I think it would be a shame to throw it away. The repairer is getting some special pads for it because normal ones are too thick.

In either case, you have an old English saxophone, so it is of some historical interest. There is a museum in Edinburgh that might be interested in having it, but I doubt if they would pay you for it. I think the V&A also has an instrument collection.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Many thanks. That is very helpful.
If it were overhauled and in working order, would it be worth anything?

I’m trying to work out whether it is financially worthwhile mending.

I've never seen a Hawkes Excelsior that wasn't high pitched, and a suspect you have to move up to the XX Century (as shown above) before you encounter a Hawkes sax that's in modern concert pitch.

Value on any early soprano is tricky - they seldom sell for a great deal. The ergonomics are often poor (not such a big issue on a soprano though) and the internal tuning can be somewhat sketchy. However, they often play very well with a much more rounded tone than more modern horns. As such, coughing up to have them repaired is more a labour of love rather than a sound financial investment...and if the horn's high-pitched, it'll be a waste of time and money.

It'll have soldered=on toneholes, which is often the big killer in terms of the cost of restoring them as many (if not all) of them will need refitting.

 

[DavidUK]

By coincidence I spotted what may be an identical model on ebay last night, listed a few hours before the OP posed his question...

Vintage Soprano Saxophone | eBay

This isn't the OP's but he may be able to confirm it's the identical model. If so, it may help to answer his questions?

PS. I was surprised to see a bid on the ebay one at £100. Perhaps the bidder assumed it was LP? Maybe it is! Anyway, I quickly moved on...

 

[nigeld]

I'm surprised that the eBay one is lacquered - I would have expected silver for a saxophone that old.

I've never seen a Hawkes Excelsior that wasn't high pitched, and a suspect you have to move up to the XX Century (as shown above) before you encounter a Hawkes sax that's in modern concert pitch.

My Lafleur pre-dates the XX Century and is low pitch, but it is a French-made stencil sold under the Lafleur brand rather than Hawkes.

 

[Dibbs]

Does anyone know about Hawkes & Sons' "classes"? I've think I've seen instruments marked "Sonorous Class", "Superior Class" and "First Class". Not necessarily saxophones. Which class is the top one?

 

[thomsax]

By coincidence I spotted what may be an identical model on ebay last night, listed a few hours before the OP posed his question...

Vintage Soprano Saxophone | eBay

This isn't the OP's but he may be able to confirm it's the identical model. If so, it may help to answer his questions?

PS. I was surprised to see a bid on the ebay one at £100. Perhaps the bidder assumed it was LP? Maybe it is! Anyway, I quickly moved on...

Share many details with a Conn New Wonder (I) 18M. 18M stands for Straight soprano Low Pitch. 19M was straight High Pitch.

 

[RY Sax]

Many thanks for all your advice on my Sop Sax. All very interesting. I’ve had a good look and can spot no indication of whether it is low or high pitch. However, I managed to get a note out of it this afternoon and it seems to be in Bb and was reasonably in tune with my clarinet.
Out of interest, it has only the 1 octave key.
I also looked up Hawkes and Sons Sonorous on Google and it only seems to come up with Brass Instruments, nothing on saxes at all.

 

[JayeNM]

Well, there ya' go, that IS, of course the best way to figure out high vs. low pitch.....playtest it.

Another thing to consider on old, vintage sopranos...is it keyed up to high F ? Or just high Eb ? Because, if the latter...even if she is low pitch, it really just becomes an interesting old (and anachronistic) soprano....so probably not worth putting much $ into it.

The eFlay example has the 3 sidekeys/3 plams, therefore it might be half-interesting to get it worked up into playing shape....so, if yours is the same, then...ditto....

 

[stitch]

I was going to reference the same auction as DavidUK above.
Just measured one of my LP H&S XXC sops: 64cm. A HP version would be significantly shorter.
The auction seller says his/hers is 65 - 66cm. Including m/p perhaps?

 

[Dibbs]

...
I also looked up Hawkes and Sons Sonorous on Google and it only seems to come up with Brass Instruments, nothing on saxes at all.

I've seen it on clarinets. Low price Boosey & Hawkes 1010 Clarinets
In the above case one that was played professionally relatively recently so that's a sign that they must have been pretty decent in their day.

but they also had Superior Class CLARINET, Hawkes & Son, Denman Street, Piccadilly Circus London, Superior Class, 1-HM 587? 02 (64

which you'd expect to be superior to something (sonorous?)

and First Class Beautiful Albert simple system First Class Hawkes & Son London rosewood clarinet | eBay

which you'd expect to be the top of the range.

 

[stitch]

... First Class Beautiful Albert simple system First Class Hawkes & Son London rosewood clarinet | eBay

which you'd expect to be the top of the range.

That seller is ... shall we say notorious? ... for listing instruments at quite outrageous prices. The surprising thing is that some times s/he actually sells them at those prices ...

 

[Dibbs]

That seller is ... shall we say notorious? ... for listing instruments at quite outrageous prices. The surprising thing is that some times s/he actually sells them at those prices ...

Oh yes I know. It was just the first example of a Hawkes instrument that says "first class" that I found.

 

[thomsax]

Interesting. A Conn straight soprano 19M HP is (25¼" x 2,54) around 64 cm. A Conn straight soprano 18M LP is (22½" x 2,54) around 57 cm. All other of Conn's HP saxes are shorter. I guess the mesure the saxes from the bow to the neck joint?

 

[thomsax]

I was going to reference the same auction as DavidUK above.
Just measured one of my LP H&S XXC sops: 64cm. A HP version would be significantly shorter.
The auction seller says his/hers is 65 - 66cm. Including m/p perhaps?

I just measured my Conn LP -25 and it's 64-65 cm. I think the chart is wrong. 25¼" for LP and 22½" for HP? The the conical area on a HP sax is bigger?